Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Aemilius
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Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Red Pine has included in his translation of the Diamond Sutra excerpts from the existing commentaries by well known buddhist masters, like Hui Neng (who lived from February 27. 638 ... until August 28. 713), and who is also known as the Sixth Patriarch or Sixth Ancestor of Chan.

Hui Neng comments the Chapter Twenty-Four thus: "You can offer mountains of jewels, but there is no mountain that does not wear away. The great mountain of prajña is the true mountain of jewels. Thus follows a chapter on the merit and wisdom beyond compare."

We are told in the history of geology that such knowledge concerning the nature of mountains did not exist anywhere in the world, before the advent of geology. This passage of Hui Neng implies that he knew the immense force of erosion, that takes place in the natural environment, and which wears away the mountains gradually and completely. This should have been radical knowledge during his time, 638... 713 CE. It may not seem such to us now, as most of us are used to the existence of geology.

(Chapter Twenty-Four begins: "More over, Subhuti, if a man or woman brought together as many piles of seven jewels as all the Mount Sumerus in the billion worlds of the universe, and gave them as a gift to...")
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm We are told in the history of geology
By whom?
Just because geologists developed scientific methods that revealed the causes of erosion, that doesn’t mean others couldn’t figure it out, especially in the east where mudslides often reshape mountainsides many times within the span of a single lifetime.
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:23 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm We are told in the history of geology
By whom?
Just because geologists developed scientific methods that revealed the causes of erosion, that doesn’t mean others couldn’t figure it out, especially in the east where mudslides often reshape mountainsides many times within the span of a single lifetime.
:good:
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm ...We are told in the history of geology that such knowledge concerning the nature of mountains did not exist anywhere in the world, before the advent of geology. ...
Can you give us a date and location for "the advent of geology", Aemilius?

:coffee:
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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“aemelius” wrote:
We are told in the history of geology that such knowledge concerning the nature of mountains did not exist anywhere in the world, before the advent of geology. This passage of Hui Neng implies that he knew the immense force of erosion, that takes place in the natural environment, and which wears away the mountains gradually and completely.
Who are we “told” that by? I’ve never heard anyone say anything like that anywhere, and even non-Buddhist teachings frequently mention the non-permanence of mountains etc., say nothing of Buddhism.
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:04 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:23 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm We are told in the history of geology
By whom?
Just because geologists developed scientific methods that revealed the causes of erosion, that doesn’t mean others couldn’t figure it out, especially in the east where mudslides often reshape mountainsides many times within the span of a single lifetime.
:good:
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm ...We are told in the history of geology that such knowledge concerning the nature of mountains did not exist anywhere in the world, before the advent of geology. ...
Can you give us a date and location for "the advent of geology", Aemilius?

:coffee:
Kim
I have listened to podcasts and videos of Christian Shorey, there several tens of them. He says that Nicolas Steno was the first person or the first geologist who discovered the basic laws of geology. They are called Steno's laws of stratigraphy.

"Nicolaus Steno, January 1638 – 25 November 1686, was a Danish scientist, a pioneer in both anatomy and geology who became a Catholic bishop in his later years.
After travelling through France, he settled in Italy in 1666 – at first as professor of anatomy at the University of Padua and then in Florence as in-house physician of Grand Duke of Tuscany Ferdinando II de' Medici, who supported arts and science and whom Steensen had met in Pisa. Etc..."

Christian Shorey: Earth Explorations


CHRISTIAN V. SHOREY,
FACULTY, GEOLOGY AND GEOLOGIC ENGINEERING
Colorado School of Mines
Golden, CO 80401
USA
University of Texas, Austin; B.S. geology, minor in zoology 1993
University of Iowa, Ph.D. Geoscience 2002
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Aemilius wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:50 am I have listened to podcasts and videos of Christian Shorey, there several tens of them. He says that Nicolas Steno was the first person or the first geologist who discovered the basic laws of geology. They are called Steno's laws of stratigraphy.
Also, Christopher Columbus discovered America.
(In other words, just because you discover something, it doesn’t mean that you were the first).
Stenio’s law has to do with the sides of crystalline structures. What does that have to do with what Hui Neng wrote

“Prajna is the mountain of jewels” is a poetic way of saying that ‘wisdom is the greatest treasure’.
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Aemilius wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:50 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:04 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:23 pm
By whom?
Just because geologists developed scientific methods that revealed the causes of erosion, that doesn’t mean others couldn’t figure it out, especially in the east where mudslides often reshape mountainsides many times within the span of a single lifetime.
:good:
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm ...We are told in the history of geology that such knowledge concerning the nature of mountains did not exist anywhere in the world, before the advent of geology. ...
Can you give us a date and location for "the advent of geology", Aemilius?

:coffee:
Kim
I have listened to podcasts and videos of Christian Shorey, there several tens of them. He says that Nicolas Steno was the first person or the first geologist who discovered the basic laws of geology.
Hmmm... probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere without Aristotle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorolo ... e)#Geology and Theophrastus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... #Antiquity and the Arabs who followed them.
:thinking:
But my basic point is that none of our sciences ever started from a blank slate. The sciences are systematised knowledge, but the knowledge existed before the system which tried to tie it all together, on the one hand, and separate it from related fields, on the other.

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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:03 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:50 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:04 am
:good:


Can you give us a date and location for "the advent of geology", Aemilius?

:coffee:
Kim
I have listened to podcasts and videos of Christian Shorey, there several tens of them. He says that Nicolas Steno was the first person or the first geologist who discovered the basic laws of geology.
Hmmm... probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere without Aristotle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorolo ... e)#Geology and Theophrastus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... #Antiquity and the Arabs who followed them.
:thinking:
But my basic point is that none of our sciences ever started from a blank slate. The sciences are systematised knowledge, but the knowledge existed before the system which tried to tie it all together, on the one hand, and separate it from related fields, on the other.

:coffee:
Kim
That is true ofcourse, but it does not take away the importance of Steno and those that come after him. Coming back to Buddhism, if you look at the pali texts, the agamas, or Mahayana sutras, mountains are often mentioned, but there seem to be no idea how they come about and how or when they cease. Except through the fire and water catastrophes at the end of a Kalpa.

The impermanence of the outer world is there in the sutras in principle, but how it takes place is not understood at all, or it is a vaguely understood idea. Mountains, continents and places like cities seem to be more or less permanent during one kalpa according to the sutras. Jatakas and Avadanas describe past events in a very distant past, that took place in the same locations that existed in India 2500 years ago.

This may be true for some 100 000s years or even millions of years, but the continent of India has changed quite a lot in the light of modern geology. It has been formed from many different pieces and of different landmasses. There has also been massive volcanic activity and there are different layers of sediments. Even places like Nalanda are now cover in sediments. How much more would be the ancient places like Kusinara which are mentioned in the Sutras, Jatakas and Avadanas and which should have existed in those same spots of land hundred thousand, million, or hundred million years ago according to sutras, jatakas and avadanas. That is not possible according to geology.

Incidentally I do not believe that the modern material view of history is really true. I believe that the distant past that is described in sutras, Jatakas and Avadanas is true, literally or in some sense. There is much more to the history on planet earth, than materialistic science knows or accepts. This is because the different levels of existence, like the kamadhatu devas, rupadhatu devas and arupadhatu devas, have existed from the very "beginning" and before it. Because of this the history and development of beings on planet Earth has been different from what the science presently imagines.

Coming back to impermanence of the outer world in sutras, there is for example a sutta taught by Shariputra concerning the impermanence and unreliability of the four elements. He says, among other things, that the oceans that seem so real will some time in the future gradually diminish and they will finally dry up altogether. But he only mentions earthquakes, that show the unreliablity and impermanence of the earth element.
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Aemilius wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:01 pm
That is true ofcourse, but it does not take away the importance of Steno and those that come after him. Coming back to Buddhism, if you look at the pali texts, the agamas, or Mahayana sutras, mountains are often mentioned, but there seem to be no idea how they come about and how or when they cease. Except through the fire and water catastrophes at the end of a Kalpa.

The impermanence of the outer world is there in the sutras in principle, but how it takes place is not understood at all, or it is a vaguely understood idea. Mountains, continents and places like cities seem to be more or less permanent during one kalpa according to the sutras. Jatakas and Avadanas describe past events in a very distant past, that took place in the same locations that existed in India 2500 years ago.

This may be true for some 100 000s years or even millions of years, but the continent of India has changed quite a lot in the light of modern geology. It has been formed from many different pieces and of different landmasses. There has also been massive volcanic activity and there are different layers of sediments. Even places like Nalanda are now cover in sediments. How much more would be the ancient places like Kusinara which are mentioned in the Sutras, Jatakas and Avadanas and which should have existed in those same spots of land hundred thousand, million, or hundred million years ago according to sutras, jatakas and avadanas. That is not possible according to geology.

Incidentally I do not believe that the modern material view of history is really true. I believe that the distant past that is described in sutras, Jatakas and Avadanas is true, literally or in some sense.
Wow. I have absolutely no idea what the point is that you are trying to make.
First of all, the relative importance of Steno is not a Buddhist concern. The two don’t have anything have do with each other.
Nor has the purpose of the Buddhist teachings ever been about explaining geology.

It’s like saying that just because pineapples are sweet doesn’t take away from the importance of cats catching mice. It makes no sense.
What are you trying to say?

Second, you are bringing up all of this stuff related to geological science, but then you say “Incidentally I do not believe that the modern material view of history is really true.” But geological science is firmly based in the material view.

This is all very confusing, and doesn’t really have anything to do with Hui Neng. Does it?.
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm This passage of Hui Neng implies that he knew the immense force of erosion, that takes place in the natural environment, and which wears away the mountains gradually and completely. This should have been radical knowledge during his time,
I don’t see how Hui Neng’s statement suggests that he knew about ‘the immense force of erosion’. What leads you to assume that? Is it because you take ancient descriptions as literal? Maybe that premise is faulty. Maybe that’s the reason why you find Hui Nung’s words so puzzling.

Not to mention that just because some European geologists make the claim that some other European geologists were the first to understand erosion doesn’t mean it’s a fact. Again, that’s like saying that Columbus “Discovered” America.

Would you please explain what is the point you are making?
:thinking: :shrug:
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:48 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:01 pm
That is true ofcourse, but it does not take away the importance of Steno and those that come after him. Coming back to Buddhism, if you look at the pali texts, the agamas, or Mahayana sutras, mountains are often mentioned, but there seem to be no idea how they come about and how or when they cease. Except through the fire and water catastrophes at the end of a Kalpa.

The impermanence of the outer world is there in the sutras in principle, but how it takes place is not understood at all, or it is a vaguely understood idea. Mountains, continents and places like cities seem to be more or less permanent during one kalpa according to the sutras. Jatakas and Avadanas describe past events in a very distant past, that took place in the same locations that existed in India 2500 years ago.

This may be true for some 100 000s years or even millions of years, but the continent of India has changed quite a lot in the light of modern geology. It has been formed from many different pieces and of different landmasses. There has also been massive volcanic activity and there are different layers of sediments. Even places like Nalanda are now cover in sediments. How much more would be the ancient places like Kusinara which are mentioned in the Sutras, Jatakas and Avadanas and which should have existed in those same spots of land hundred thousand, million, or hundred million years ago according to sutras, jatakas and avadanas. That is not possible according to geology.

Incidentally I do not believe that the modern material view of history is really true. I believe that the distant past that is described in sutras, Jatakas and Avadanas is true, literally or in some sense.
Wow. I have absolutely no idea what the point is that you are trying to make.
First of all, the relative importance of Steno is not a Buddhist concern. The two don’t have anything have do with each other.
Nor has the purpose of the Buddhist teachings ever been about explaining geology.

It’s like saying that just because pineapples are sweet doesn’t take away from the importance of cats catching mice. It makes no sense.
What are you trying to say?

Second, you are bringing up all of this stuff related to geological science, but then you say “Incidentally I do not believe that the modern material view of history is really true.” But geological science is firmly based in the material view.

This is all very confusing, and doesn’t really have anything to do with Hui Neng. Does it?.
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm This passage of Hui Neng implies that he knew the immense force of erosion, that takes place in the natural environment, and which wears away the mountains gradually and completely. This should have been radical knowledge during his time,
I don’t see how Hui Neng’s statement suggests that he knew about ‘the immense force of erosion’. What leads you to assume that? Is it because you take ancient descriptions as literal? Maybe that premise is faulty. Maybe that’s the reason why you find Hui Nung’s words so puzzling.

Not to mention that just because some European geologists make the claim that some other European geologists were the first to understand erosion doesn’t mean it’s a fact. Again, that’s like saying that Columbus “Discovered” America.

Would you please explain what is the point you are making?
:thinking: :shrug:
I am making several points.
1. Buddhism says that the outer world is impermanent.
2. The sutras do not explain the mechanisms how for example mountains and continents are impermanent.
3. Geology explains clearly the mechanisms how mountains are formed and how they are destroyed. Same with continents.
4. Hui Neng makes a statement about the wearing away of mountains, which is not found in the sutras.
5. We can assume that there was more geological knowledge in ancient China or Hui Neng had it, than is explained in the sutras.
6. Learning geology is very useful for a Buddhist, through it you will understand in great detail how the outer world is impermanent.
7. It has been said that Geology is a great succes story of Science. In a couple of hundred years it acquired a great mass of knowledge, which was not understood before.

The Kalpa stone is mentioned in Chan/Zen literature. It is also found in the Lotus sutra, Nichiren mentions it in the context of the Devadatta Chapter. Kalpa stone describes atleast a metaphorical kind of erosion. The idea of erosion is not totally absent from Buddhism.

Buddha explains the length of a kalpa thus :

"Were a man to take a piece of cloth of this most delicate texture [of fine cotton], and therewith to touch in the slightest possible manner, once in a hundred years, a solid rock, free from earth, a yojana [~14 miles] high, and as much broad, the time would come when it would be worn down, by this imperceptible trituration, to the size of a mung or undu seed. This period would be immense in its duration; but it has been declared by Buddha that it would not be equal to a Maha Kalpa.
A similar similitude is found in the Mountain Pabbata Sutta (SN 15:5) of the Pali Canon:
Suppose there were a great mountain of rock—a league long, a league wide, a league high, uncracked, uncavitied, a single mass—and a man would come along once every hundred years and rub it once with a Kāsi cloth. More quickly would that great mountain of rock waste away and be consumed by that effort, but not the eon [kalpa]. That’s how long, monk, an eon is."

— Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu (translator)


I will leave aside the question about Buddhist history of the world (as explained in the sutras) versus modern history. It is not essential for the question of geology and impermanence.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:38 am I am making several points.
1. Buddhism says that the outer world is impermanent.
2. The sutras do not explain the mechanisms how for example mountains and continents are impermanent.
3. Geology explains clearly the mechanisms how mountains are formed and how they are destroyed. Same with continents.
4. Hui Neng makes a statement about the wearing away of mountains, which is not found in the sutras.
5. We can assume that there was more geological knowledge in ancient China or Hui Neng had it, than is explained in the sutras.
6. Learning geology is very useful for a Buddhist, through it you will understand in great detail how the outer world is impermanent.
7. It has been said that Geology is a great succes story of Science. In a couple of hundred years it acquired a great mass of knowledge, which was not understood before.
Thank you. That is very clear now.
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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Aemilius wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:50 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:04 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:23 pm
By whom?
Just because geologists developed scientific methods that revealed the causes of erosion, that doesn’t mean others couldn’t figure it out, especially in the east where mudslides often reshape mountainsides many times within the span of a single lifetime.
:good:
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:55 pm ...We are told in the history of geology that such knowledge concerning the nature of mountains did not exist anywhere in the world, before the advent of geology. ...
Can you give us a date and location for "the advent of geology", Aemilius?

:coffee:
Kim
I have listened to podcasts and videos of Christian Shorey, there several tens of them. He says that Nicolas Steno was the first person or the first geologist who discovered the basic laws of geology. They are called Steno's laws of stratigraphy.
There's a whole section in Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China on the study of mining and geology in ancient China. I haven't read it all because, well, Needham is a bore, but it's a good illustration of Needham's general point that there was a lot of scientific knowledge in China that existed long before its European counterparts, we just weren't aware of it.
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:38 am Learning geology is very useful for a Buddhist, through it you will understand in great detail how the outer world is impermanent.
Understanding how things function is certainly interesting and can be very useful, but such Knowledge doesn’t bring one closer to liberation from samsara (which is the purpose of the Buddhist teachings).

Studying any science will tell you more about the means by which things arise and eventually break apart. There’s nothing particularly unique about Geology in that regard.

The Buddha also mentioned that upon death, the body starts to disintegrate. Did he go into details about cellular degeneration? No. He just pointed out that all composite phenomena are impermanent.

That simple statement covers pretty much everything, and is directly observable in most things.

It really isn’t a great mystery that Hui Neng also observed this in geology. Anyone who lives near rivers or cliffs or ravines can see them slowly change shape during one’s own lifetime, usually due to water, if not earthquakes.

Simply stating that “There is no mountain that does not wear away” is hardly declaring something that isn’t easily observable.
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Re: Geological knowledge in Hui Neng's Commentary (?)

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:19 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:38 am Learning geology is very useful for a Buddhist, through it you will understand in great detail how the outer world is impermanent.
Understanding how things function is certainly interesting and can be very useful, but such Knowledge doesn’t bring one closer to liberation from samsara (which is the purpose of the Buddhist teachings).

Studying any science will tell you more about the means by which things arise and eventually break apart. There’s nothing particularly unique about Geology in that regard.

The Buddha also mentioned that upon death, the body starts to disintegrate. Did he go into details about cellular degeneration? No. He just pointed out that all composite phenomena are impermanent.

That simple statement covers pretty much everything, and is directly observable in most things.

It really isn’t a great mystery that Hui Neng also observed this in geology. Anyone who lives near rivers or cliffs or ravines can see them slowly change shape during one’s own lifetime, usually due to water, if not earthquakes.

Simply stating that “There is no mountain that does not wear away” is hardly declaring something that isn’t easily observable.
As has been stated long ago: After some new and important discovery, people will say that "it was really self-evident and there is really nothing to it ". They sometimes even get angry at the inventor, because they themselves had not realized it. You must accept that before the breakthrough of the basic laws of geology, these laws were unknown. People thought that mountains are imperturbable and unchanging, that continents are unchanging and permanent, etc..

Same is naturally true with all sciences, like the invention of the periodic table of elements, etc..

Knowledge of anatomy, knowledge of metabolism, knowledge of geology , chemistry, etc... all have an effect on and deepen our practice several basic meditations and forms of mindfulness. Like the meditation on impermanence of the outer world and the impermanence of body and mind. There are dozens of books about the process of aging. They will assuredly increase your understanding of aging, they will deepen your awareness of the process of becoming old. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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