Question about Three-Vow Conversion

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Wannabuddha
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Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by Wannabuddha »

As I understand it, when one aspires to devote the merit of diverse practices to rebirth in the Pure Land, one enters the gate of the 18th Vow. When one abandons miscellaneous practices and dedicates only the merit of saying the Name to rebirth in the Pure Land, one enters the gate of the 20th Vow. And when one abandons self-power Nembutsu and entrusts one's salvation to the Buddha's power alone, one enters the Ocean of the 18th Vow.

I always had the impression that conversion from the 20th to the 18th Vow is equivalent to the realization of shinjin. But when I look at my current situation, it seems like I'm in an intermediate stage. I am no longer devoting the merits of my own actions (including self-power Nembutsu) toward rebirth in the Pure Land. I firmly regard the power of Amida as the only possible cause of my rebirth in the Fulfilled Pure Land, and I have no doubt about that. But I am still subject to doubts about the very reality of Amida and his saving power, which indicates that I am not a person of diamond-like shinjin.

This may seem contradictory, but it's like this: I accept that the only possible way I could reach the Fulfilled Pure Land is by Amida's Primal Vow, assuming the Pure Land is real. But I'm not always confident of that assumption, and sometimes it feels like a mere hypothetical. There are moments when I feel that it is very real, and this brings radiant joy, but that feeling passes and the doubts creep back into my mind.

Does one enter the Ocean of the 18th Vow as soon as one abandons any hope of achieving birth by self-power, although one may still retain doubts about Amida's reality? Is there an intermediate step between the gate of the 20th Vow and the gate of the 18th Vow?
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Even your death is theoretical until you experience it.
There are moments when I feel that it is very real, and this brings radiant joy, but that feeling passes and the doubts creep back into my mind.
That's because we don't attain non-retrogression here, but in the Pure Land. Until then, our mind is what it is. Such instability and lack of refuge available in your mind can be compelling reasons to seek refuge in the sources of true refuge, the Three Jewels.

Honen made this comparison:
Honen Shonin, Promise of Amida Buddha p. 397-8 wrote:For instance, when visiting a Shinto shrine or Buddhist temple, one who is fleet of foot arrives there in a few hours while another who trudges slowly may take more than a day. In any event, those who have the intention to visit will reach there eventually. In the same manner, if one aspires to birth in the Pure Land, faith in one's birth in the Pure Land through nembutsu will deepen with the passage of time.
Simply plugging away at nembutsu over time has helped me feel less worry about the day-to-day vagaries of trying to be a Buddhist with an ordinary human mind and an ordinary human life.

Zhen Li is a great person to ask about Shin specifics like this -- if he doesn't reply, try sending a message.

Namu Amida Butsu.
Namu Amida Butsu
Wannabuddha
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by Wannabuddha »

According to Shinran, we do indeed achieve non-retrogression in our ordinary life. Thanks for your reply, but I'm not looking to abandon Jodo Shinshu and take up another school just now.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by Zhen Li »

In terms of the three-vows, if one has doubts, continuing to practice (plugging away, as Myoan puts it), even if one knows that it is only Amida who saves one, is not at all to be disparaged. Continuing to listen deeply and reflect on the significance of the Buddha and the Dharma also cannot be underestimated. Shinjin coincides with an understanding that a future with Amida is the only reality and possibility, and it is incomprehensible, so it is not going to be a matter of mustering up belief by accumulating evidence and reasoning. Continue listening to the Dharma and asking the Dharma teacher good questions about your doubts, and faith will be realised by the natural working of the vow.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by 明安 Myoan »

:applause: :good:
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by Wannabuddha »

Thanks, Zhen Li.

Sorry if my reply to you was peevish, Myoan. I had the impression that you were trying to steer me to an alternative school rather than answering the substance of my question.

I think I'm close to letting go of the "gotta generate faith" mindset, at least I accept it intellectually. I often remind myself, "I can't add anything to Amida's working." Lack of patient endurance is a major weakness of mine. While I can't imagine quitting the path, hope springs eternal that somebody will tell me something or explain something so that everything "clicks" all of a sudden.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by 明安 Myoan »

No need to apologize -- after all, I said nothing about abandoning Shinshu. My familiarity is with Honen Shonin, so I shared what I hoped would help. I don't personally see the message of Honen and Shinran as being that different.
I'm glad when someone takes refuge in Amida Buddha.

Regarding non-retrogression, I was thinking of what I've seen online sometimes, where nembutsu devotees interpret statements from Shinran, Honen, and Shantao to have no doubts as though one fails by having essentially an ordinary mind that is unsubdued and lacking in wisdom.
The confusion you describe is a good reason to persist in practice and hearing the Dharma, as Zhen Li said.
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:53 pm As I understand it, when one aspires to devote the merit of diverse practices to rebirth in the Pure Land, one enters the gate of the 18th Vow. When one abandons miscellaneous practices and dedicates only the merit of saying the Name to rebirth in the Pure Land, one enters the gate of the 20th Vow. And when one abandons self-power Nembutsu and entrusts one's salvation to the Buddha's power alone, one enters the Ocean of the 18th Vow.

I always had the impression that conversion from the 20th to the 18th Vow is equivalent to the realization of shinjin. But when I look at my current situation, it seems like I'm in an intermediate stage. I am no longer devoting the merits of my own actions (including self-power Nembutsu) toward rebirth in the Pure Land. I firmly regard the power of Amida as the only possible cause of my rebirth in the Fulfilled Pure Land, and I have no doubt about that. But I am still subject to doubts about the very reality of Amida and his saving power, which indicates that I am not a person of diamond-like shinjin.

This may seem contradictory, but it's like this: I accept that the only possible way I could reach the Fulfilled Pure Land is by Amida's Primal Vow, assuming the Pure Land is real. But I'm not always confident of that assumption, and sometimes it feels like a mere hypothetical. There are moments when I feel that it is very real, and this brings radiant joy, but that feeling passes and the doubts creep back into my mind.

Does one enter the Ocean of the 18th Vow as soon as one abandons any hope of achieving birth by self-power, although one may still retain doubts about Amida's reality? Is there an intermediate step between the gate of the 20th Vow and the gate of the 18th Vow?
Do you still say Nembutsu with Self Power?

Recite Shoshinge daily is good

Please try and work with a teacher with settled faith even if its phone email only
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:53 pm I accept that the only possible way I could reach the Fulfilled Pure Land is by Amida's Primal Vow, assuming the Pure Land is real. But I'm not always confident of that assumption, and sometimes it feels like a mere hypothetical. There are moments when I feel that it is very real, and this brings radiant joy, but that feeling passes and the doubts creep back into my mind.
What exactly do you mean by “real”?
Do you mean in the same way that you are real?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Wannabuddha
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by Wannabuddha »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:37 am What exactly do you mean by “real”?
Do you mean in the same way that you are real?
Yes, that's a good way of putting it.

I think the many years I spent as a materialist atheist has left deep ruts in my thinking about the "disposition" of absolute reality. A nagging voice in the back of my mind insists that reality is synonymous with disillusion and disappointment, that it is fundamentally cold and uncaring. This is no longer my considered view, but it is like a devil on my shoulder. As long as this devil is on my shoulder, exerting an influence on my thinking, I am liable to feel that my following the Nembutsu path is a kind of imposture or hollow performance.

So there's always a tension. A part of my mind insists that the promise of Amida must be a false promise, because somehow, for some reason nobody can explain, reality must be cruel and cold. Whether because of materialist acculturation or a general pessimism and mistrusting nature, I have a hard time letting go of the dogma of "cold reality" and trusting in "warm reality".

But I'm not really a ball of angst at this point. I am happy and grateful to be under the guidance of an ordained teacher and plugged into a living tradition that I trust to lead me where I want to go. I'm wrestling with things, but I understand this is part of listening to the Dharma, and I trust it will lead somewhere positive.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Question about Three-Vow Conversion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Wannabuddha wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:05 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:37 am What exactly do you mean by “real”?
Do you mean in the same way that you are real?
Yes, that's a good way of putting it.
Well I think that’s the trick. The first step (or next step, maybe) is to examine ‘in what sense does “me” have any real existence?

It’s the same with the six realms, various Buddhist deities and so forth in any tradition, any thing that we can’t immediately perceive
(but perhaps can be perceived with some type of meditative practice) but sort of have to take or not take on faith or something like it. People often ask, “are they real, like me?” While the Buddha is basically saying to the practitioner, ‘first, look at the ‘self’ you grasp to as real. Where is there something in that reality which isn’t a projection of your own mind?’

Another thing to consider is that this experience of doubt is really about moving out of one’s comfort zone. And for those who are used to thinking in terms of material, ‘rational’ terms, that view of things is also about self-grasping: We cling to the material world view of 2+2=4 because it’s nice and square and logical. So if I see myself as a logical person, I’m clinging to that. Any way of thinking that threatens that, also threatens my ego, the sense of “I” that’s also at the core of ‘suffering’ (Dukkha). Pure Land Buddhism really cuts through that type of attachment.

I think this kind of doubt can be very effective. The more there is that you can really question and resolve now, the more solid your conviction will be later
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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