There is no business like religion business.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 am Should dharma texts also be free?
Do you mean no cost to produce them?
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tobes
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by tobes »

The way I look at it is (in extreme admiration for places like Lotsawa House, 84,000, Suttacentral etc):

Why would there be any incentive to make Dharma free, if there was not some kind of intrinsic Dharmic reason to make it so? Why not just fully cash in, commodify, capitalise, profit? What's the thought stopping such an activity?

It's not the thought that the Dharma should be like a charity for poor people who can't feed themselves.

It's the thought that the highest dana is giving Dharma. Full stop, that's why benefactors put in, and that's why translators etc take a hit to their labour time.

Moreover nothing but good comes of this.

It's not the case that someone goes online, reads a bit of Prajnaparamita and somehow gets a karmic debt. This is applying capitalist logic to something that thoroughly transcends such logic.

It's all good. But it subverts our usual way of thinking. As it should.
Kai lord
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Kai lord »

justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 am Should dharma texts also be free?
Lots of Dharma teachings are already free and widely available like accessinsight, etc. And you can get free access to expensive texts even the latest ones from any reputed Buddhist library near your house.

Some people are complaining largely because they are either extremely picky and those free dharma teachings are not the ones that caught their eyes or they are lazy to look hard enough or travel far enough.
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Aemilius
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:46 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:09 am According to T. W. Rhys-Davids we have some knowledge about the economic and societal system in ancient India. In his book Buddhist India we find:

Buddha is quite clearly taking a political stance here, -we could say. Already this list of crafts has quite a lot of information in it.

Buddhist India http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... Davids.pdf
This certainly tells us very little about the point I was making: "It’s equally clear that we have a very imperfect idea of how instrumental market forces/potlach expenditures actually were in spreading Buddhism, even during the lifetime of the Buddha."

And we actually do not have much insight into how the economic climate of ancient India. We know that Buddha encouraged prosperity among the laity and so on. We know that it was common for śrāvakas to be supported on alms. We know that there was currency of some form since bhikṣus were forbidden from individually handling gold and silver, etc., through in all vinayas there is a position for a Sangha treasurer, meaning that Sanghas held wealth, even from the earliest days. We generally assume that Buddhism was most popular among the merchant class, and seems to have spread mainly along trade routes into Bactria, Central Asia, etc., and later along sea routes to China etc. But these insight are very external. We do not have much in the way of actual reports from the period of 500 -- 400 BCE of the economic life of India. And most of what we know of the ancient Indian economy is post-Alexander.
We can safely make the conclusion that they were quite wealthy and prosperous, as Jatakas and sutras tell us. They had enough wealth and free time to start wondering about the "meaning of life", or other philosophical questions about the nature of existence. And wealthy enough to support a class of idlers that were called sramanas (and brahmanas).

from Mahā-Sudassana Sutta, The Great King Of Glory:
"Long ago, Ānanda, there was a king, by name Mahā-Sudassana, a king of kings, a righteous man who ruled in righteousness, an anointed Kshatriya, Lord of the four quarters of the earth, conqueror, the protector of his people, possessor of the seven royal treasures. This Kusinārā, Ānanda, was the royal city of king Mahā-Sudassana, under the name of Kusāvatī, and on the east and on the west it was twelve leagues in length, and on the north and on the south it was seven leagues in breadth. That royal city Kusāvatī, Ānanda, was mighty, and prosperous, and full of people, crowded with men, and provided with all things for food. Just, Ānanda, as the royal city of the gods, Ālakamandā by name, is mighty, prosperous, and full of people, crowded with the gods, and provided with all kinds of food, so. Ānanda, was the royal city Kusāvatī mighty and prosperous, full of people, crowded with men, and provided with all kinds of food.

Both by day and by night, Ānanda, the royal city Kusāvatī resounded with the ten cries; that is to say, the noise of elephants, and the noise of horses, and the noise of chariots; the sounds of the drum, of the tabor, and of the lute; the sound of singing, and the sounds of the cymbal and of the gong; and lastly, with the cry, ‘Eat, drink, and be merry!’"
...
“And whoever, Ānanda, in the royal city Kusāvatī were at that time gamblers, drunkards, and given to drink, they used to dance round together to the sound of those palms when shaken by the wind."
svaha
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Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Malcolm
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:45 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:46 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:09 am According to T. W. Rhys-Davids we have some knowledge about the economic and societal system in ancient India. In his book Buddhist India we find:

Buddha is quite clearly taking a political stance here, -we could say. Already this list of crafts has quite a lot of information in it.

Buddhist India http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... Davids.pdf
This certainly tells us very little about the point I was making: "It’s equally clear that we have a very imperfect idea of how instrumental market forces/potlach expenditures actually were in spreading Buddhism, even during the lifetime of the Buddha."

And we actually do not have much insight into how the economic climate of ancient India. We know that Buddha encouraged prosperity among the laity and so on. We know that it was common for śrāvakas to be supported on alms. We know that there was currency of some form since bhikṣus were forbidden from individually handling gold and silver, etc., through in all vinayas there is a position for a Sangha treasurer, meaning that Sanghas held wealth, even from the earliest days. We generally assume that Buddhism was most popular among the merchant class, and seems to have spread mainly along trade routes into Bactria, Central Asia, etc., and later along sea routes to China etc. But these insight are very external. We do not have much in the way of actual reports from the period of 500 -- 400 BCE of the economic life of India. And most of what we know of the ancient Indian economy is post-Alexander.
We can safely make the conclusion that they were quite wealthy and prosperous, as Jatakas and sutras tell us. They had enough wealth and free time to start wondering about the "meaning of life", or other philosophical questions about the nature of existence. And wealthy enough to support a class of idlers that were called sramanas (and brahmanas).

from Mahā-Sudassana Sutta, The Great King Of Glory:
"Long ago, Ānanda, there was a king, by name Mahā-Sudassana, a king of kings, a righteous man who ruled in righteousness, an anointed Kshatriya, Lord of the four quarters of the earth, conqueror, the protector of his people, possessor of the seven royal treasures. This Kusinārā, Ānanda, was the royal city of king Mahā-Sudassana, under the name of Kusāvatī, and on the east and on the west it was twelve leagues in length, and on the north and on the south it was seven leagues in breadth. That royal city Kusāvatī, Ānanda, was mighty, and prosperous, and full of people, crowded with men, and provided with all things for food. Just, Ānanda, as the royal city of the gods, Ālakamandā by name, is mighty, prosperous, and full of people, crowded with the gods, and provided with all kinds of food, so. Ānanda, was the royal city Kusāvatī mighty and prosperous, full of people, crowded with men, and provided with all kinds of food.

Both by day and by night, Ānanda, the royal city Kusāvatī resounded with the ten cries; that is to say, the noise of elephants, and the noise of horses, and the noise of chariots; the sounds of the drum, of the tabor, and of the lute; the sound of singing, and the sounds of the cymbal and of the gong; and lastly, with the cry, ‘Eat, drink, and be merry!’"
...
“And whoever, Ānanda, in the royal city Kusāvatī were at that time gamblers, drunkards, and given to drink, they used to dance round together to the sound of those palms when shaken by the wind."
These are not contemporary reports, dating three hundred years APN. A lot can change in three hundred years.
Malcolm
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:46 am
This is applying capitalist logic to something that thoroughly transcends such logic.

Sponsoring Dharma is still an exchange for value: people do these things for merit, to accumulate karmic capital. So it us actually right in line with market thinking. Indeed, karma is treated as debt by the Buddha, likewise merit is capital.
Soma999
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Soma999 »

Market thinking : give the less possible, and take the maximum you can
Intention : profit, pleasure, me, myself, my big car

Spirituality : giving more than you take
Intention : service

For the two there is money. In market thinking it is the goal. In spirituality/dharma, it is a tool.

Intention is really the most important.
Malcolm
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:11 pm Market thinking : give the less possible, and take the maximum you can
Intention : profit, pleasure, me, myself, my big car
Very often people think terms of minimum effort maximum merit. Indeed, the whole theory of two accumulations in Vajrayana is based on this very principle.

Indeed, an appeal to merit making is the central feature of Buddhist marketing.

So let’s not kid ourselves about the notion of debt and profit as operative concepts in karma and merit.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Soma999 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:11 pm Market thinking : give the less possible, and take the maximum you can
Intention : profit, pleasure, me, myself, my big car

Spirituality : giving more than you take
Intention : service

For the two there is money. In market thinking it is the goal. In spirituality/dharma, it is a tool.

Intention is really the most important.
You are obviously not a businessperson.
Marketing is actually about offering the most that you can at the least cost. This is what gives one the competitive advantage.

Spirituality= giving without wallowing in the duality of ‘giving & taking’.

Yes, intention is the basis of everything.
EMPTIFUL.
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justsit
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by justsit »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:57 am
justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 am Should dharma texts also be free?
Do you mean no cost to produce them?
No, sorry, guess I wasn't clear, had some surgery today.

Question is addressed to OP. Do they think all dharma and resources should be free, or just "live" teachings, and why?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:57 am
justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 am Should dharma texts also be free?
Do you mean no cost to produce them?
No, sorry, guess I wasn't clear, had some surgery today.

Question is addressed to OP. Do they think all dharma and resources should be free, or just "live" teachings, and why?
Right. But I think the question “Do you mean to produce them?” still applies.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
jet.urgyen
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by jet.urgyen »

justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 am Should dharma texts also be free?
Happily there are already free sutra texts in the internet.

Sadly also there are already "free" tantra texts in the internet.

To answer, i see that there must be always at least something, some basic text people can easily approach to. Like the discourses on loving kindness, the 4 noble truths, something.

It cannot be everything, as is quite clear, due to economic or secrecy reasons.
jet.urgyen
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by jet.urgyen »

Sometimes i wonder if is dharma that must be told according to the people, or the people who must adapt to dharma as is presented. And then, what's the purpose of dharma after all?

I come to understand that if one want to teach because one wants to collaborate on the task, the intent, one should know that, just as no one forces the student to follow, no one forced one to begun to teach -for example- in first place. So one shouldn't give much importance to complaining at all.

If beings in samsara are greedy and don't want to pay for what one wants to teach, should one as a teacher or dharma friend complain? If one has a really big aim, to say build up a grat community, or get every Buddha's word translated into common language, connect everyone to dharma, etc., should one complain because people who are intoxicated in poison doesn't help? And dharma is for them after all, no?

Do you think Bodhisattvas charge for their help hahahahhah 😂
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
gelukman
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by gelukman »

justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:57 am
justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:41 am Should dharma texts also be free?
Do you mean no cost to produce them?
No, sorry, guess I wasn't clear, had some surgery today.

Question is addressed to OP. Do they think all dharma and resources should be free, or just "live" teachings, and why?
I oppose this idea that you pay every month for a webcasts. That a big part of your money goes to buddhist fixed donation.
It is not ethical behavior to collect zoom fixed donations. You need to live in peace. You need to keep your money for living expenses without
any one luring you into "scientology trap".
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heart
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by heart »

gelukman wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:28 pm
justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:57 am
Do you mean no cost to produce them?
No, sorry, guess I wasn't clear, had some surgery today.

Question is addressed to OP. Do they think all dharma and resources should be free, or just "live" teachings, and why?
I oppose this idea that you pay every month for a webcasts. That a big part of your money goes to buddhist fixed donation.
It is not ethical behavior to collect zoom fixed donations. You need to live in peace. You need to keep your money for living expenses without
any one luring you into "scientology trap".
Seriously please check out what Zoom charges before you get your upset. Hint, it is expensive.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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justsit
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by justsit »

gelukman wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:28 pm
justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:57 am
Do you mean no cost to produce them?
No, sorry, guess I wasn't clear, had some surgery today.

Question is addressed to OP. Do they think all dharma and resources should be free, or just "live" teachings, and why?
I oppose this idea that you pay every month for a webcasts. That a big part of your money goes to buddhist fixed donation.
It is not ethical behavior to collect zoom fixed donations. You need to live in peace. You need to keep your money for living expenses without
any one luring you into "scientology trap".
Books as well?

Other dharma items?
gelukman
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by gelukman »

heart wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:43 pm
gelukman wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:28 pm
justsit wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:29 pm

No, sorry, guess I wasn't clear, had some surgery today.

Question is addressed to OP. Do they think all dharma and resources should be free, or just "live" teachings, and why?
I oppose this idea that you pay every month for a webcasts. That a big part of your money goes to buddhist fixed donation.
It is not ethical behavior to collect zoom fixed donations. You need to live in peace. You need to keep your money for living expenses without
any one luring you into "scientology trap".
Seriously please check out what Zoom charges before you get your upset. Hint, it is expensive.

/magnus
I am not upset. It is not my concern or my milking cow. Every one has the right to do what ever they want.
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heart
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by heart »

gelukman wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:57 pm
heart wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:43 pm
gelukman wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:28 pm

I oppose this idea that you pay every month for a webcasts. That a big part of your money goes to buddhist fixed donation.
It is not ethical behavior to collect zoom fixed donations. You need to live in peace. You need to keep your money for living expenses without
any one luring you into "scientology trap".
Seriously please check out what Zoom charges before you get your upset. Hint, it is expensive.

/magnus
I am not upset. It is not my concern or my milking cow. Every one has the right to do what ever they want.
Would be better if you tried to find out some facts before you tried to tell the world what is right and what is wrong.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Malcolm »

jet.urgyen wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:21 pm
Do you think Bodhisattvas charge for their help hahahahhah 😂
Certainly, if it causes people to value that help more.
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Virgo
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Re: There is no business like religion business.

Post by Virgo »

tobes wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:01 am
Well, the Buddha did impose a vinaya rule for monastics not to handle money, nor buy or sell things. And he gave up his life of wealth and comfort....so I don't think it is an unfair inference to think that he may not have been that keen on 21st century capitalism/commodification, especially of his own tradition.
Buddhism has to survive in the modern world. Do you think teachers should live off alms food and live in small villages carved out of the jungle like Buddha did?

Virgo
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