Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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stong gzugs
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by stong gzugs »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:30 pm While I don't deny some Silk Road transmission of alchemy as a subject or practice, I do still have serious doubts about your theory of the origins of the word "alchemy".
I haven't done a very deep dive into the etymology, but I read an article of DGW's that made a good deal of sense to me. A relevant excerpt:
As Joseph Needham (1980: 339-55) has demonstrated, China stands, according the best evidence, as the primal source for the world's transmutational and elixir alchemy. The Chinese technique of kim or chin, 'aurifaction,' probably emerged in China in about the first century CE; from there, it would have been carried west to the Mediterranean world in perhaps the third century CE. This Chinese term would then have been transliterated, by Pseudo-Zosimus or someone before him, into the Greek chymia or chemia, later Arabicized into al-kīmiyā, and finally Latinized as alchymia, alchemy. If this historical reconstruction is correct, then Syria. which received its alchemy from China in about the third century CE, would have exported its mythic extraction technique back to the east, via our thirteenth-to-fourteenth-century Indian sources, to China in the seventeenth century.
Certainly speculative, but seems to make sense.
Varis wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:39 am Do you know if the practices of drawing the essence of the elements, sun and moon, etc. in TB have antecedents in Indian Rasayana?
This seems quite likely. Here's from the article quoted above:
The structure and dynamics of this apparatus recall the dynamics of yogic reversal-known, from the time of the Mahabharata onwards, as urddhvareta s ('upward-tending semen'). In the subtle physiology of the yogic body, it is in the head and torso that the two chambers of the sublimating apparatus find their homologues. As has been noted, these two poles or 'chambers' of the hathayogic system are further identified with the visceral sun and cranial moon, through the interaction of which the yogin comes to partake of the cooling nectar (mercury, the refined semen of Siva) that 'condenses' to ooze downward from the top of the cranial vault, also called the lunar circle. As in the alchemical apparatus, the system is activated through the interplay of thermal energy (the burning sun below and the cooling moon above) and female and male sexual fluids (uterine blood below and refined semen above) ...

it is through the internal channeling of sexual fluids (the yogic body being symbolically androgynous) that the sexual union of male and female principles, divine and mineral, is effected. Here, the hathayogic subtle body is divided, at the level of the navel, between male and female. All that lies above the navel is male, and thereby identified with male seed, with the moon that exudes vivifying nectar, and the god Siva. It is in the cranial vault, portrayed as a downtumed well, that these male elements are concentrated: semen that has been transformed into nectar through yogic practice oozes from a moon that has been filled out by that same nectar, a moon that is the abode of the seminal deity Siva. All that lies below the navel is female, identified with female uterine or menstrual blood, with the sun that provides the thermal energy necessary to fuel the transfonnation of seed into nectar, and the goddess Sakti whose name means 'Energy.' At the beginning of yogic practice, these elements are all concentrated in the lower abdomen, which is portrayed as an upturned well, the complement to the downturned well in the cranial vault.
And here's something from another DGW chapter:
Alchemy, the “way of mercury” (rasāyana), was essentially a Hindu enterprise in India; there are no extant Buddhist texts devoted to the subject. Within the Hindu sphere, the roughly eleventh-century Rasārṇava or “Ocean of Mercury” is the most important textual source for what is known as tantric alchemy. In contrast to earlier (third to tenth centuries C.E.) “gold-making” alchemy and later (fourteenth to twentieth centuries) therapeutic uses of mercurial and mineral medicines, tantric alchemy, which saw its heyday in the tenth to thirteenth centuries, was most concerned with the supreme goals of bodily immortality (jīvanmukti), supernatural powers (siddhi) and a state of being identical to that of the supreme god Śiva. Tantric alchemy is so called because these goals were identical with those of the broad-based medieval Indian body of religious practice and doctrine known as tantra. What made tantric alchemy unique was its emphasis on the use of mineral, mainly mercurial, preparations (but also botanicals, as well as a number of animal substances) as the means toward its tantric end.

The theory behind this practice was the identification alchemists made between mercury (rasa), the fluid metal, and the semen (also called rasa) of Śiva, the great Hindu god whose millenarian icon has been a phallus (liṅga). Mercury was, for them, the seminal essence of a god who (pro-)creates the universe sexually; indeed, the origin myth of mercury tells us that quicksilver first arose when Śiva spilled his seed at the end of a long bout of lovemaking
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Malcolm »

stong gzugs wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:27 pm
Alchemy, the “way of mercury” (rasāyana), was essentially a Hindu enterprise in India; there are no extant Buddhist texts devoted to the subject.
That's simply false. Aren't you a kalacakra devotee? Kalacakra has mercury preperation for rasāyana.

The Vajrapāṇiabhiṣeka Tantra mentions mercury rasāyana. It was translated by Silendrabodhi and Yeshe De in the late eight century.

Don't believe everything you read by western academics on religion. They make a lot of errors when they opine outside their field of study.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:30 pm
VajraDude wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:00 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:11 am
"Appears"? How and where does it "appear"? Written on the heavens in words of fire visible to the Elect both by day and by night, or written in the Oxford Dictionary of the English Language, 13th edition (1730), Vol III, p, 1037?

More seriously, you have to provide some basis for your claim, especially since it contradicts current knowledge.

:coffee:
Kim
It should not contradict present knowledge, if your knowledge is up to date.
It’s been known for quite a few years the east - west derivation of western alchemy’s “elixir path”, the path of the so-called Lapis Philosophorum, or Philosopher’s Stone. As mentioned by Malcolm above, the work of Needham (all vols on archive.com) is a good source.
"the first-century A.D. Chinese technique of kim or chin, "aurifaction," would have been carried west to the Mediterranean world in perhaps the third century A.D.. This Chinese term would then have been transliterated, by Pseudo-Zosimus, as chymeia or chemeia, later arabicized into al-chymeia, and introduced into European traditions as alchymia, alchemy.” David Gordon White, The Alchemical Body.
There’s much more that can said on these trends, for example Marco Polo’s visit to the coast of Malabar is the first documented example of ‘chiugis’ (yogis) using mercury to extend their lives. The route of transmission appears to be via a branch of the silk road that terminated in Arabia. (emphasis added)
Thank you for providing the sources of your claim.
While I don't deny some Silk Road transmission of alchemy as a subject or practice, I do still have serious doubts about your theory of the origins of the word "alchemy".
For one thing, it's highly speculative. I have bolded some words in your post to highlight gaps and assumptions.
For another, it's at odds with all the standard references on the English language (all that I've bothered to look at, anyway - you might be able to find a white crow).
E.g. https://www.etymonline.com/word/alchemy
mid-14c., from Old French alchimie (14c.), alquemie (13c.), from Medieval Latin alkimia, from Arabic al-kimiya, from Greek khemeioa (found c.300 C.E. in a decree of Diocletian against "the old writings of the Egyptians"), all meaning "alchemy," and of uncertain origin.
Perhaps from an old name for Egypt (Khemia, literally "land of black earth," found in Plutarch), or from Greek khymatos "that which is poured out," from khein "to pour," from PIE root *gheu- "to pour" [Watkins, but Klein, citing W. Muss-Arnolt, calls this folk etymology]. The word seems to have elements of both origins.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alchemy
Middle English alkemye, alkamye, alchymie, borrowed from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French alkemye (Middle French also alquimie, arquemie), borrowed from Medieval Latin alkimia, alchymia "transmutation of base metals into gold, the philosopher's stone," borrowed from Arabic al-kīmiyāʼ, from al "the" + kīmiyāʼ "art of transmuting base metals," borrowed, perhaps via Syriac kīmiyā, from Late Greek chymeîā, chēmeîā, of uncertain origin
:namaste:
Kim
Kim, those are commonly used old sources and mostly outdated, long known to me as I was familiar with this etymology previously. There is a natural gap between western academic scholars of alchemy and eastern practice of the same. Western alchemical scholars are working primarily in Latin, but also German, Italian and Eastern European languages.
These are partial derivations which don't contain the broader context now known and do not include more recent discoveries. I like to call this the tower-of-babble effect. The "khem", black earth nonsense was debunked decades ago. These refs are mostly artifacts of the various early fantasies of Egypt that Europeans, particularly the French, created. Some still persist from the days before the Rosetta Stone unlocked our understanding of Egyptian history. It's a weird rosicrucio-hermetico fantasy world of Egyptian mysteries (the Egyptian "mysteries" were public) and weird Tibetan texts named the Book of Dzyan! Don't be fooled by the pattern of obfuscation!
The reason for this is the jumble in historical transmission for east-to-west is texts first came via Greece and then later Arabicized from the Greek. Westerners generally have little practical knowledge of Asian languages. Tower of babble effect. This gap and obfuscation is the problem.
For vajrayana practitioners it's informative to look at era maps of NW India for a clearer overarching understanding. NW India is where the major trade routes came down from "Parada-desa" the land of the Parthians (includes the Traxonians and Baluchistanians), literally, the land of "Parada", mercury. Similarly the place associated with red cinnabar, mercuric sulfide ore or darada is Darada-desa or modern day Dardistan. This is direct line with the Swat valley, the known source for Tibetan buddhist mercurial praxis (e.g.Urgyanpa RInchenpal).
On the opposite side of India we have Nagarjuna-as-mad-light body scientist on secluded Nagajurna-konda. His parada came from the other known trade route via Bengal.
While it was originally assumed that rasashastra originated in southern India, this now known to be incorrect and both NE and NW India were the original areas of praxis.
We should also not assume alchemy as it came to be known in the west originated from China however, it is still basically "a draw" historically.

Steve
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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PS: Kim, one of finest map sources is the Schwartzberg atlas - very pricey - but very nicely placed on the university of Chicago "digital South Asia library" website: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/schwartzberg/. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Relevant example:
Cultural sites of the Classical Age, c. A.D. 300-700 and Routes of Chinese Travelers to India
https://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/sch ... object=065
yathā pinde tathā brahmānde: As the Microcosm, So the Macrocosm, all that is needed, is in your environment.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by stong gzugs »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:34 pm Don't believe everything you read by western academics on religion. They make a lot of errors when they opine outside their field of study.
Yeah, that's a strange line because he explicitly talks about Kālacakra and Burmese zawgyi or weikza practice as being the major Buddhist systems of alchemy in his book. But he delineates a whole bunch of different types of alchemy, and might have been focusing on just one of them in this chapter. I'd have to dig deeper. But the book is the best source I know of that covers these topics. I'm very open to suggestions about alternate readings/sources.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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stong gzugs wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:44 pmI'm very open to suggestions about alternate readings/sources.
Learn Tibetan.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Varis wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:40 pm I'm curious to hear what others might think of this. Personally, I lean towards this theory myself. You can even find things such as Utkranti-like practices in the Shangqing scriptures and Daoist mythology (the story of Li Tieguai).
It was odd to hear this coming from him for a number of reasons.

Most Hatha-yogins of his level will have read and/or translated the classical texts of yoga-darshana, the hatha-yoga pradipika, etc. etc. As one reads these, they have a certain flavor and style of their own. Amritasiddhiyoga has this same quality and style.

I have not done a side by side, verse by verse, comparison however I do not believe Mallinson has done any of the necessary rectification and verification needed in the translation of this text. Otherwise it is excellent. Many of the originals have errors from spelling to word changes, to having the verses in the wrong sequence adding words or phrases. The one way pundits have verified Amritasiddhiyoga, is to compare it to the Jyotsna by Brahmananda - a popular commentary on hatha-yoga-pradipika which quotes it a good bit. Actually the Jyotsna helps correct verse order, so it's required.

So knowing all this, something seems off with this. Having said that I have often wondered about Wutai Shan and it's relationship to all of this, even reading works on it during the pandemic.

Steve
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Kim O'Hara »

VajraDude wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:59 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:30 pm
VajraDude wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:00 pm
It should not contradict present knowledge, if your knowledge is up to date.
It’s been known for quite a few years the east - west derivation of western alchemy’s “elixir path”, the path of the so-called Lapis Philosophorum, or Philosopher’s Stone. As mentioned by Malcolm above, the work of Needham (all vols on archive.com) is a good source.
"the first-century A.D. Chinese technique of kim or chin, "aurifaction," would have been carried west to the Mediterranean world in perhaps the third century A.D.. This Chinese term would then have been transliterated, by Pseudo-Zosimus, as chymeia or chemeia, later arabicized into al-chymeia, and introduced into European traditions as alchymia, alchemy.” David Gordon White, The Alchemical Body.
There’s much more that can said on these trends, for example Marco Polo’s visit to the coast of Malabar is the first documented example of ‘chiugis’ (yogis) using mercury to extend their lives. The route of transmission appears to be via a branch of the silk road that terminated in Arabia. (emphasis added)
Thank you for providing the sources of your claim.
While I don't deny some Silk Road transmission of alchemy as a subject or practice, I do still have serious doubts about your theory of the origins of the word "alchemy".
For one thing, it's highly speculative. I have bolded some words in your post to highlight gaps and assumptions.
For another, it's at odds with all the standard references ...

:namaste:
Kim
Kim, those are commonly used old sources and mostly outdated, long known to me as I was familiar with this etymology previously. There is a natural gap between western academic scholars of alchemy and eastern practice of the same. Western alchemical scholars are working primarily in Latin, but also German, Italian and Eastern European languages.
These are partial derivations which don't contain the broader context now known and do not include more recent discoveries. I like to call this the tower-of-babble effect. The "khem", black earth nonsense was debunked decades ago. These refs are mostly artifacts of the various early fantasies of Egypt that Europeans, particularly the French, created. Some still persist from the days before the Rosetta Stone unlocked our understanding of Egyptian history. It's a weird rosicrucio-hermetico fantasy world of Egyptian mysteries (the Egyptian "mysteries" were public) and weird Tibetan texts named the Book of Dzyan! Don't be fooled by the pattern of obfuscation!
The reason for this is the jumble in historical transmission for east-to-west is texts first came via Greece and then later Arabicized from the Greek. Westerners generally have little practical knowledge of Asian languages. Tower of babble effect. This gap and obfuscation is the problem.
For vajrayana practitioners it's informative to look at era maps of NW India for a clearer overarching understanding. NW India is where the major trade routes came down from "Parada-desa" the land of the Parthians (includes the Traxonians and Baluchistanians), literally, the land of "Parada", mercury. Similarly the place associated with red cinnabar, mercuric sulfide ore or darada is Darada-desa or modern day Dardistan. This is direct line with the Swat valley, the known source for Tibetan buddhist mercurial praxis (e.g.Urgyanpa RInchenpal).
On the opposite side of India we have Nagarjuna-as-mad-light body scientist on secluded Nagajurna-konda. His parada came from the other known trade route via Bengal.
While it was originally assumed that rasashastra originated in southern India, this now known to be incorrect and both NE and NW India were the original areas of praxis.
We should also not assume alchemy as it came to be known in the west originated from China however, it is still basically "a draw" historically.

Steve
With all due respect (etc, etc) none of what you say here addresses the origins of the word "alchemy", which was alll I queried in the first place. Unless and until you can provide a chain of derivations back to the Chinese word which you say it came from, you have nothing but speculation and wishful thinking.

:shrug:
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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VajraDude wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:16 pmThere was nothing new to me.
As a Freemasonic historian, I own most of this stuff and am selling a lots of it.
In general I look at Manley Hall as a dubious source.

I would consider him to be not dubious, but one of the more enlightened Masons. Although nowadays I'd rather practice Yoga and Dharma in general, than read books on Western Occultism.

And I used to have a nice library almost a couple decades ago, and one day kind of had an meltdown and sold all my books to a local bookseller for pennies on the dollar.

A lot of the books that I had, are now worth big bucks. I popped into a local book seller the other day, and saw that a book I used to have, Fulcanelli's The Dwellings of the Philosophers, is going for almost $400 there. I think that I'd sold it for like 10 or 15 dollars.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Sādhaka »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:19 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:49 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:27 pm

Unlikely. Buddhism first entered China during Han Dynasty and Lao Tzu lived during the times of Spring and Autumn era which was centuries before Qin Dynasty. And Lao Tzu was a Chinese and had never been to India.

In fact Buddha and Lao Tzu either appeared in the same era or around one centuries apart.

Yes however I'm sure that you also could see this in not such an limited way; that is because as you're well aware, it is said that Buddhas have emanations. Now there is a lot more I'd like to comment on regarding this; although I may have to revisit this thread when I have more time....

According to Kāśyapamātanga who started the whole idea and subsequently revived by some of the Chan and pure land patriarchs, Lao zi was actually Mahākāśyapa, an Arahant, in disguise so he could not been an emanation. Arahant does not have that ability.

Mahākāśyapa using his mastery of six superknowledges, flew to China and changed his appearance so that he can become Laozi. Of course, this also directly contradicted the traditional Theravadin account of Mahākāśyapa body eventually enshrined in the Kukkuṭapāda Mountain, waiting for Maitreya without having long decades of disappearance.

That kind of rings a bell, from what I remember of Manly P. Hall's book The Sages of China. He may have even said Mahākāśyapa by name, as having been Lao Tzu; and, if I remember correctly, that he implied that he had headed back west to India, at the end of his life as Lao Tzu. I could be mistaken though. Too bad I don't have that book anymore, and can't find a PDF....
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:56 am
VajraDude wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:59 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:30 pm With all due respect (etc, etc) none of what you say here addresses the origins of the word "alchemy", which was alll I queried in the first place. Unless and until you can provide a chain of derivations back to the Chinese word which you say it came from, you have nothing but speculation and wishful thinking.

:shrug:
Kim
What I’ve done is several things:
-I’ve given you the Chinese derivation of the original root word, it’s translation into Greek and then it’s Arabicization
-it’s path of east-west transmission
-the sources for these for you to explore
-samsaric patterns and trends in western definition of the word
After having, hopefully, checked the latter source, not sure what else I can tell you.
Ad fuentes Kim! You’re supposed to read sources before responding, otherwise argumentum ad ignorantiam is the basis of your argumentation…
Steve
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

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yathā pinde tathā brahmānde: As the Microcosm, So the Macrocosm, all that is needed, is in your environment.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Malcolm »

"gold making plant juice"

The Tibetan term for this, "gser 'gyur rtsi" literally means "the juice that changes things into gold." Rtsi, hilariously, also means "paint."

This somewhat supports the Chinese origin theory.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:22 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:19 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:49 pm


Yes however I'm sure that you also could see this in not such an limited way; that is because as you're well aware, it is said that Buddhas have emanations. Now there is a lot more I'd like to comment on regarding this; although I may have to revisit this thread when I have more time....

According to Kāśyapamātanga who started the whole idea and subsequently revived by some of the Chan and pure land patriarchs, Lao zi was actually Mahākāśyapa, an Arahant, in disguise so he could not been an emanation. Arahant does not have that ability.

Mahākāśyapa using his mastery of six superknowledges, flew to China and changed his appearance so that he can become Laozi. Of course, this also directly contradicted the traditional Theravadin account of Mahākāśyapa body eventually enshrined in the Kukkuṭapāda Mountain, waiting for Maitreya without having long decades of disappearance.

That kind of rings a bell, from what I remember of Manly P. Hall's book The Sages of China. He may have even said Mahākāśyapa by name, as having been Lao Tzu; and, if I remember correctly, that he implied that he had headed back west to India, at the end of his life as Lao Tzu. I could be mistaken though. Too bad I don't have that book anymore, and can't find a PDF....
Fayan (Chan) patriarch Yongming Yanshou wrote about that and even discussed about the bodhisattva identity of Confucius in his book, "万善同归集" but both ideas never gained much traction among Chinese Buddhists. For the non Buddhist Chinese, some are even angered by the suggestion and view it as cultural invasive and a crude assimilation attempt.

Thats why to this day, while Confucius and Lao Zi are being worshipped as gods in Chinese temple, neither is being worshipped as Bodhisattvas or Arahants.
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by Kim O'Hara »

VajraDude wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:59 pm
What I’ve done is several things:
-I’ve given you the Chinese derivation of the original root word, it’s translation into Greek and then it’s Arabicization
-it’s path of east-west transmission
-the sources for these for you to explore
-samsaric patterns and trends in western definition of the word
After having, hopefully, checked the latter source, not sure what else I can tell you.
Ad fuentes Kim! You’re supposed to read sources before responding, otherwise argumentum ad ignorantiam is the basis of your argumentation…
Steve
There's no need to be rude, Steve, and it won't get you anywhere anyway - "Illegitimi non carborundam" has been my motto for eons. :smile:

I did read what you provided earlier, including sources, and I did not see anything resembling a Chinese word for alchemy. I may have missed it, of course, but I don't think so. That said,
gives me the chain I asked for.

:thanks:
Kim
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by VajraDude »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:22 am
VajraDude wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:59 pm Ad fuentes Kim! You’re supposed to read sources before responding, otherwise argumentum ad ignorantiam is the basis of your argumentation…
Steve
There's no need to be rude, Steve, and it won't get you anywhere anyway - "Illegitimi non carborundam" has been my motto for eons. :smile:

I did read what you provided earlier, including sources, and I did not see anything resembling a Chinese word for alchemy. I may have missed it, of course, but I don't think so. That said,
gives me the chain I asked for.

:thanks:
Kim
Oh Kim I’m not! - I’m just being factual. Please be aware for future reference dhatuvadins grind metals to the consistency of collyrium so that even gold floats on water!
I’d already given the same chain, and IIRC so do some of my other sources. Needham begins with the Chinese character itself! But congratulations, you’re caught up to the year 1985!
Steve
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by ronnymarsh »

Alchemy's roots are in Hellenistic Egypt.
The Arabic term "Al Kimiya" meaning "The One of Kimi". Kimi is the Coptic - ancient Egyptian language - word for Egypt), and tradition places the first alchemists as people operating in Egypt, mainly in Alexandria and Elephantine, which were Jewish and Hellenistic centers in the first centuries of the common era (the first alchemist is even a woman called "Mary the Jewess").

At the same time, contact between the Hellenized West and India was attested in several sources. For example, the "Milinda Sutra" narrates the preaching of a Buddhist bikkhu to King Menander, in Plutarch's "The life of Alexander" there is a narrative of the dialogue between the emperor and the "gminosophists" (naked sages - possibly Jains) in India, among others.

Thus, the contact between India and the West has more than two millennia, and the discovery and manipulation of mercury occurred precisely in Egypt, approximately 3500 years ago.

Naturally, the Egyptian practices of treating the dead demonstrate a concern with the manipulation of matter, which led them to the development of techniques related to transmutation and which are at the root of alchemy.

So it is more possible that (so-called) Chinese alchemy has its roots in India, rather than the opposite. Most likely, related practices arose in Egypt, then passed to the Hellenists from Alexander (although by the classical period, Greek philosophers generally come from a Middle Eastern background), then to India. , through contact with the Macedonian empire, then arriving in China, probably taken as the advance of the Muslims.

It is important to point out that although the so-called "alchemy" is an important element in "religious Taoism" [道教 - Dao JIAO], the position defended by Laozi and Zhuangzi in "philosophical Taoism" [道家 - Dao JIA] is basically "anti-alchemical "[the central idea of Laozi and Zhuangzi is harmony with nature, wuwei, that is, it is the person who adapts to nature, however the central idea of alchemy is to manipulate nature so that it adapts to the person].

So, the entry of alchemical concepts into China must have occurred at a later time than the entry of Christians and Muslims into the region, something that happened from India.
PeterC
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Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)

Post by PeterC »

stong gzugs wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:27 pm
As Joseph Needham (1980: 339-55) has demonstrated
Needham is not a reliable source. His life’s work was to try to show that china got there first on everything. As a result, he was an expert on almost nothing. He’s a very entertaining read but his volumes are full of stuff that’s speculative at best.
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