Don’t Know Mind

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Astus
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:02 pmYes, purify and attain, investigate and gain, but . . .
Why "but..."? It's rather "then..." That is, once one has purified the mind and attained awakening, then there is no cultivation and nothing to gain. In other words, although both oneself and all things are already empty and without anything to grasp, that has to become an actual realisation in order to be free from self-centredness and clinging.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
master of puppets
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by master of puppets »

Astus wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:13 am
KeithA wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:38 amLearn and master what, exactly?
First the words, then the meaning, and then its application/usage.

:good:
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by master of puppets »

Astus wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:59 pm
clyde wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:02 pmYes, purify and attain, investigate and gain, but . . .
Why "but..."? It's rather "then..." That is, once one has purified the mind and attained awakening, then there is no cultivation and nothing to gain. In other words, although both oneself and all things are already empty and without anything to grasp, that has to become an actual realisation in order to be free from self-centredness and clinging.
What is it that attained, really?
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by SilenceMonkey »

clyde wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:02 pm Yes, purify and attain, investigate and gain, but . . .
“Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata (DKM).”
“Mind (DKM) is unobtainable.”
Tathagata Chan 如來禪 is different than Chan of the Patriarchs 祖師禪. The latter has to do with the new zen methods created by the masters of the lineage in order to communicate the wisdom of zen. They usually involve both cultivation and seated meditation.
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by SilenceMonkey »

The Don’t know mind arises through zen methods. If one doesn’t practice zen, “don’t know” is merely the not knowing of ignorance. If don’t know mind arises through zen practice, this is prajñā pāramitā.

Now the question may be… whether we see zen methods as cultivation or non-cultivation.
clyde wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:11 am No, I didn’t say that the teachings are pointless; in fact, the teaching of DKM (or Buddha-nature, and Zen teachings in general) are well regarded as pointers.

Yes, DKM (or Buddha-nature) is unattainable - because we already are it.
We can say it’s not something to attain, because it is not something out there, it is our very nature… we already have it. But we can also say we don’t have it because we don’t know we have it. Why? Because we haven’t experienced it.

Until we see the nature, then merely saying “I have Buddha nature” is blind faith. Assuming that don’t know mind is the Buddha nature… Until we see the nature arise in us, we don’t have “don’t know mind.” (And when I say “arise,” I mean that it will make itself apparent.)

We can talk about attainment because there’s a difference between before and after we experience the wisdom mind. Of course, thinking “I have attained this” is a huge obstacle on the path… but thinking there is no attainment can also easily lead to nihilism. Good practitioners make progress. Great practitioners get enlightened.

Prajñā is not present for most people. It is present for practitioners who have actually manifested it.
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Astus
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

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master of puppets wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:30 pmWhat is it that attained, really?
That there's nothing to attain.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by jimmi »

Astus wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:19 pm
master of puppets wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:30 pmWhat is it that attained, really?
That there's nothing to attain.
Why do I need to know that, given the deep insight of DKM?
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by narhwal90 »

Because it may help avoid trying to attain something you think you're missing. Or perhaps that instruction is more relevant to others.
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by SilenceMonkey »

jimmi wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:53 pm
Astus wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:19 pm
master of puppets wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:30 pmWhat is it that attained, really?
That there's nothing to attain.
Why do I need to know that, given the deep insight of DKM?
It’s because we cling to concepts (here: clinging to achievements, goals). Don’t Know Mind is the antidote to our mind’s clinging.
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Astus
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

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jimmi wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:53 pmWhy do I need to know that, given the deep insight of DKM?
The deep insight of DKM is that there is nothing to get (to know, to obtain). Otherwise it's just ordinary ignorance.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by ajhayes »

To know that true knowing is unknowable is true knowledge.

...or something like that.
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by master of puppets »

don't know..no effort..in the first meaning

simple don't know
Last edited by master of puppets on Wed Jan 03, 2024 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don’t Know Mind

Post by curtstein »

You can't have "don't know mind" if you haven't tried to know.

If you don't try to know, that means you don't want to know.

Not wanting to understand things is just willful ignorance, which should not be confused with "don't know mind".

Also, trying just a little doesn't count either. In fact, you have to still be trying, and you have to keep trying.
"there's no one here. there's only you and me." leonard cohen
https://www.mindisbuddha.org/
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