Yeshi's really back!

[Dechen Norbu]

DzKR says that we should stop visualising deities Indian- or TIbetan-style, and go boldly for what is attractive to us, as long as all the general features and the symbolic implements are there

What does that even mean?

Whatever it means, it sounds like something that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu would say is not respecting the Lineage Transmission.

To see what he means, check out the 21 Taras he comissioned, or the melodies to the practice he or his senior students came up with.

I think it is as respectful towards the tradition, let alone the transmission, as anything, but YMWV.

I agree with DzKR here. I always visualize in a much better way than what thangkas depict, but making sure all the relevant criteria is there. I never saw that as a transgression and, ao contraire, I think visualizing yidams exactly as they are depicted is a problem. First, they are 2D. Second, these are symbols. What I make sure is that both position, features and elements are present and correct. But my visualization is incomparable to what we see on paintings. It's WAY better! They are alive and are much more intense in every aspect.

[Dechen Norbu]

I have some faith in Khyentse Yeshi, due to personal experience and Norbu Rinpoche's vote of confidence, but the cult-like way in which some of his followers insist that everyone else shut up about him kinda puts me off.

It was kind of the same about Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. It also puts me off. Students are immature. That's to be expected. Also, it flies in direct opposition of his teachings.

[Adamantine]

If you need the following conditional exception to amend your prior one-liner, then the prior one liner "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen" was both inaccurate and misleading.

It is perfectly accurate and not misleading.

To avoid that, it would have to read something like "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen, except for the belief in reincarnation, which is absolutely indispensable." .. or something similar.

No. For example, we do not need to believe we are suffering. When we are suffering, there is nothing to believe. It is a fact. When we discover we are suffering, we are already entering into the existential quandary the Buddha pointed out, "We are suffering, but why are we suffering?" This requires some investigation, some diagnosis so we can get at the cause. But we do not have to have any beliefs at all to enter Dzogchen teachings. Along the way, it will become evident to us that we need to understand the cause of the three poisons, and so on. Along the way we will discover that the eight-fold path has right view, and right view entails not rejecting karma and dependent origination and so on. But one is not required to have any beliefs at all. All one has to understand, in order to enter Dzogchen teachings, is that one is suffering.

Well, let’s at least give Yeshi a chance to recontextualize, or explain or retract his earlier statements. Who knows, he may surprise us.

Frankly, I am not that interested in what YN believes or does not believe. It does not concern me. I have no interest in conditioning him or anyone else.

What concerned me was a statement by tinylocust here:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php ... e&p=653459

I don't think you need to have any beliefs to be a Dzogchen practitioner. But if one is sincere about Dzogchen, one has to recognize that the solution posed to ones suffering involves the idea of the cause of suffering, karma and affliction. That one has to investigate for oneself. Being unsure of rebirth, which is something ordinary people simply take on faith, is normal. It is not disqualifying.

If however, someone claims that the teaching of rebirth is unnecessary, this is obviously false and attempts to remove rebirth, karma, and dependent origination, etc., as being key parts of the solution to suffering offered by Dzogchen teachings is incorrect. I have always maintained this, I maintained it then, maintain it now, and will always maintain it. I will also always maintain that one does not have to believe anything to practice Dzogchen teachings, because Dzogchen teaching is not based on intellectual analysis, reasoning, or words. If you find it dissonant that I have these two perspectives that are seemingly in opposition, I am sorry. But nothing has changed. You are only looking at one thing I wrote in 2012, not everything. You will never find one word where I negate rebirth, karma, dependent origination.

Ok M, even if this was what you intended by that one line all along, and I’ll take your word for it, that really only supports one of my points.. I.e., that you needed now two extensive posts to unfold and clarify what you actually meant by that statement, which although you assert is not misleading, can lead to many people such as myself interpreting it in a much different fashion than your clarifying exposition, without the context of said clarifying exposition.

At a surface glance,

“Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point”

And “without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

Contrasts with “if you can put yourself at the feet of qualified master who teaches Dzogchen from their own experience then there is no limit of benefit and you will receive transmission whether you are a Buddhist, an Catholic or an Alien.”

And “One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen”

Clearly, a Catholic who believes in everlasting heaven or hell, can not reconcile rebirth with their beliefs.

Nor can a materialist, nihilist, etc.

Perhaps Yeshi has the same views as you however, and is merely appealing to a wider swath of the EU population who most likely are either Christians or scientific materialists, out of skillful means. Who knows. Let’s see how he develops his teaching career, and we’ll find out. He may surprise all of us, giving more context over time, as you do here. Certainly ChNN appears to have had great confidence in him, no?

Now, perhaps this wasn’t a good example in this case of another of my points regarding changing views over time., 180 degrees and so on. I’ve born witness to you doing this on a number of things, (which I don’t fault you for by any means) As an easy and irrefutable example, I’ll cite the case of your initial view that the Aro Ter was a fabricated lineage, in need of refutation, discrediting and public shaming. Since then, to paraphrase, you’ve publicly apologized for leading a campaign against them, saying all lineage histories are based on belief, can’t be proven, and so on.. so why pick on theirs.
So clearly you can change your mind and pivot on some topics! I hope recognizing that, it could inspire giving leeway for others to do the same, such as Yeshi in this case..

Who knows how this will unfold, blossom or unravel?

It sure seems like a lot of DC friends are very delighted and relieved by this development, and I truly wish that it becomes profoundly beneficial for the continuity of everything ChNN set in motion.

[Miorita]

Moving ahead as planned!

The blade of grass has to push hard cement away to live its life. There is no other path.

[Pietrepa]

This does not mitigate anything. Dzogchen practitioners also experience death, etc. Discovering instant presence is just the first step. It's not enough.

Of course. You need to remain in it. However, it completely changes the perspective. That's the very point. You still experience the shift of vision but don't experience it like an ordinary being.

I am afraid that if one has no realisation of path of seeing or at least has reached heat on path of application one will die and experience moment of death totally like an ordinary being. Maybe except for ability to cultivate some devotion/aspiration etc before dissolution of elements commences but that assumes circumstances of one's death are not rapid and traumatic. Hopefully Acharya can correct me if I am wrong

[dharmafootsteps]

If you need the following conditional exception to amend your prior one-liner, then the prior one liner "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen" was both inaccurate and misleading.

It is perfectly accurate and not misleading.

To avoid that, it would have to read something like "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen, except for the belief in reincarnation, which is absolutely indispensable." .. or something similar.

No. For example, we do not need to believe we are suffering. When we are suffering, there is nothing to believe. It is a fact. When we discover we are suffering, we are already entering into the existential quandary the Buddha pointed out, "We are suffering, but why are we suffering?" This requires some investigation, some diagnosis so we can get at the cause. But we do not have to have any beliefs at all to enter Dzogchen teachings. Along the way, it will become evident to us that we need to understand the cause of the three poisons, and so on. Along the way we will discover that the eight-fold path has right view, and right view entails not rejecting karma and dependent origination and so on. But one is not required to have any beliefs at all. All one has to understand, in order to enter Dzogchen teachings, is that one is suffering.

Well, let’s at least give Yeshi a chance to recontextualize, or explain or retract his earlier statements. Who knows, he may surprise us.

Frankly, I am not that interested in what YN believes or does not believe. It does not concern me. I have no interest in conditioning him or anyone else.

What concerned me was a statement by tinylocust here:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php ... e&p=653459

I don't think you need to have any beliefs to be a Dzogchen practitioner. But if one is sincere about Dzogchen, one has to recognize that the solution posed to ones suffering involves the idea of the cause of suffering, karma and affliction. That one has to investigate for oneself. Being unsure of rebirth, which is something ordinary people simply take on faith, is normal. It is not disqualifying.

If however, someone claims that the teaching of rebirth is unnecessary, this is obviously false and attempts to remove rebirth, karma, and dependent origination, etc., as being key parts of the solution to suffering offered by Dzogchen teachings is incorrect. I have always maintained this, I maintained it then, maintain it now, and will always maintain it. I will also always maintain that one does not have to believe anything to practice Dzogchen teachings, because Dzogchen teaching is not based on intellectual analysis, reasoning, or words. If you find it dissonant that I have these two perspectives that are seemingly in opposition, I am sorry. But nothing has changed. You are only looking at one thing I wrote in 2012, not everything. You will never find one word where I negate rebirth, karma, dependent origination.

Ok M, even if this was what you intended by that one line all along, and I’ll take your word for it, that really only supports one of my points.. I.e., that you needed now two extensive posts to unfold and clarify what you actually meant by that statement, which although you assert is not misleading, can lead to many people such as myself interpreting it in a much different fashion than your clarifying exposition, without the context of said clarifying exposition.

At a surface glance,

“Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point”

And “without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

Contrasts with “if you can put yourself at the feet of qualified master who teaches Dzogchen from their own experience then there is no limit of benefit and you will receive transmission whether you are a Buddhist, an Catholic or an Alien.”

And “One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen”

Clearly, a Catholic who believes in everlasting heaven or hell, can not reconcile rebirth with their beliefs.

Nor can a materialist, nihilist, etc.

Perhaps Yeshi has the same views as you however, and is merely appealing to a wider swath of the EU population who most likely are either Christians or scientific materialists, out of skillful means. Who knows. Let’s see how he develops his teaching career, and we’ll find out. He may surprise all of us, giving more context over time, as you do here. Certainly ChNN appears to have had great confidence in him, no?

Now, perhaps this wasn’t a good example in this case of another of my points regarding changing views over time., 180 degrees and so on. I’ve born witness to you doing this on a number of things, (which I don’t fault you for by any means) As an easy and irrefutable example, I’ll cite the case of your initial view that the Aro Ter was a fabricated lineage, in need of refutation, discrediting and public shaming. Since then, to paraphrase, you’ve publicly apologized for leading a campaign against them, saying all lineage histories are based on belief, can’t be proven, and so on.. so why pick on theirs.
So clearly you can change your mind and pivot on some topics! I hope recognizing that, it could inspire giving leeway for others to do the same, such as Yeshi in this case..

Who knows how this will unfold, blossom or unravel?

It sure seems like a lot of DC friends are very delighted and relieved by this development, and I truly wish that it becomes profoundly beneficial for the continuity of everything ChNN set in motion.

This seems a very strange line of argument. No one has suggested people can't change their minds, least of all Malcolm.

You don't seem to have any knowledge of the statements of YN that provoked these discussions, as even if you had been correctly interpreting Malcolm's posts that you pulled up, none of the examples are remotely analogous to the things said in the meetings.

There's no need to try to defend Yeshi here. No one's attacking him or suggesting that anyone interested shouldn't attend these teachings.

[Adamantine]

It is perfectly accurate and not misleading.



No. For example, we do not need to believe we are suffering. When we are suffering, there is nothing to believe. It is a fact. When we discover we are suffering, we are already entering into the existential quandary the Buddha pointed out, "We are suffering, but why are we suffering?" This requires some investigation, some diagnosis so we can get at the cause. But we do not have to have any beliefs at all to enter Dzogchen teachings. Along the way, it will become evident to us that we need to understand the cause of the three poisons, and so on. Along the way we will discover that the eight-fold path has right view, and right view entails not rejecting karma and dependent origination and so on. But one is not required to have any beliefs at all. All one has to understand, in order to enter Dzogchen teachings, is that one is suffering.



Frankly, I am not that interested in what YN believes or does not believe. It does not concern me. I have no interest in conditioning him or anyone else.

What concerned me was a statement by tinylocust here:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php ... e&p=653459

I don't think you need to have any beliefs to be a Dzogchen practitioner. But if one is sincere about Dzogchen, one has to recognize that the solution posed to ones suffering involves the idea of the cause of suffering, karma and affliction. That one has to investigate for oneself. Being unsure of rebirth, which is something ordinary people simply take on faith, is normal. It is not disqualifying.

If however, someone claims that the teaching of rebirth is unnecessary, this is obviously false and attempts to remove rebirth, karma, and dependent origination, etc., as being key parts of the solution to suffering offered by Dzogchen teachings is incorrect. I have always maintained this, I maintained it then, maintain it now, and will always maintain it. I will also always maintain that one does not have to believe anything to practice Dzogchen teachings, because Dzogchen teaching is not based on intellectual analysis, reasoning, or words. If you find it dissonant that I have these two perspectives that are seemingly in opposition, I am sorry. But nothing has changed. You are only looking at one thing I wrote in 2012, not everything. You will never find one word where I negate rebirth, karma, dependent origination.

Ok M, even if this was what you intended by that one line all along, and I’ll take your word for it, that really only supports one of my points.. I.e., that you needed now two extensive posts to unfold and clarify what you actually meant by that statement, which although you assert is not misleading, can lead to many people such as myself interpreting it in a much different fashion than your clarifying exposition, without the context of said clarifying exposition.

At a surface glance,

“Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point”

And “without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

Contrasts with “if you can put yourself at the feet of qualified master who teaches Dzogchen from their own experience then there is no limit of benefit and you will receive transmission whether you are a Buddhist, an Catholic or an Alien.”

And “One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen”

Clearly, a Catholic who believes in everlasting heaven or hell, can not reconcile rebirth with their beliefs.

Nor can a materialist, nihilist, etc.

Perhaps Yeshi has the same views as you however, and is merely appealing to a wider swath of the EU population who most likely are either Christians or scientific materialists, out of skillful means. Who knows. Let’s see how he develops his teaching career, and we’ll find out. He may surprise all of us, giving more context over time, as you do here. Certainly ChNN appears to have had great confidence in him, no?

Now, perhaps this wasn’t a good example in this case of another of my points regarding changing views over time., 180 degrees and so on. I’ve born witness to you doing this on a number of things, (which I don’t fault you for by any means) As an easy and irrefutable example, I’ll cite the case of your initial view that the Aro Ter was a fabricated lineage, in need of refutation, discrediting and public shaming. Since then, to paraphrase, you’ve publicly apologized for leading a campaign against them, saying all lineage histories are based on belief, can’t be proven, and so on.. so why pick on theirs.
So clearly you can change your mind and pivot on some topics! I hope recognizing that, it could inspire giving leeway for others to do the same, such as Yeshi in this case..

Who knows how this will unfold, blossom or unravel?

It sure seems like a lot of DC friends are very delighted and relieved by this development, and I truly wish that it becomes profoundly beneficial for the continuity of everything ChNN set in motion.

This seems a very strange line of argument. No one has suggested people can't change their minds, least of all Malcolm.

You don't seem to have any knowledge of the statements of YN that provoked these discussions, as even if you had been correctly interpreting Malcolm's posts that you pulled up, none of the examples are remotely analogous to the things said in the meetings.

There's no need to try to defend Yeshi here. No one's attacking him or suggesting that anyone interested shouldn't attend these teachings.

Ha! Whatever dude. One doesn’t need to read too deeply into things when in the course of two consecutive posts Malcolm states

“Igor Berkhin told me Yeshe definitely rejects rebirth, and after the meeting, even went so far as to offer a course of “Dzogchen without rebirth” at one point.”

And

“without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

This certainly reads as discouraging. I’m merely advocating for the recognition that we shouldn’t hold anyone to A) comments made without allowing for further clarifying exposition and context and B) opinions stated sometime in the past which very possibly may have changed.

Clearly, Yeshi has already radically about-faced in one explicit comment he made around that time, indicating he had absolutely no interest in teaching. And now, low and behold, he’s teaching! So perhaps he’s pivoted on much more that just this. Like I said, perhaps he’s had a significant epiphany, realization, vision, dream or sign.. who knows? Let’s stay open minded..

[dharmafootsteps]

Ok M, even if this was what you intended by that one line all along, and I’ll take your word for it, that really only supports one of my points.. I.e., that you needed now two extensive posts to unfold and clarify what you actually meant by that statement, which although you assert is not misleading, can lead to many people such as myself interpreting it in a much different fashion than your clarifying exposition, without the context of said clarifying exposition.

At a surface glance,

“Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point”

And “without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

Contrasts with “if you can put yourself at the feet of qualified master who teaches Dzogchen from their own experience then there is no limit of benefit and you will receive transmission whether you are a Buddhist, an Catholic or an Alien.”

And “One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen”

Clearly, a Catholic who believes in everlasting heaven or hell, can not reconcile rebirth with their beliefs.

Nor can a materialist, nihilist, etc.

Perhaps Yeshi has the same views as you however, and is merely appealing to a wider swath of the EU population who most likely are either Christians or scientific materialists, out of skillful means. Who knows. Let’s see how he develops his teaching career, and we’ll find out. He may surprise all of us, giving more context over time, as you do here. Certainly ChNN appears to have had great confidence in him, no?

Now, perhaps this wasn’t a good example in this case of another of my points regarding changing views over time., 180 degrees and so on. I’ve born witness to you doing this on a number of things, (which I don’t fault you for by any means) As an easy and irrefutable example, I’ll cite the case of your initial view that the Aro Ter was a fabricated lineage, in need of refutation, discrediting and public shaming. Since then, to paraphrase, you’ve publicly apologized for leading a campaign against them, saying all lineage histories are based on belief, can’t be proven, and so on.. so why pick on theirs.
So clearly you can change your mind and pivot on some topics! I hope recognizing that, it could inspire giving leeway for others to do the same, such as Yeshi in this case..

Who knows how this will unfold, blossom or unravel?

It sure seems like a lot of DC friends are very delighted and relieved by this development, and I truly wish that it becomes profoundly beneficial for the continuity of everything ChNN set in motion.

This seems a very strange line of argument. No one has suggested people can't change their minds, least of all Malcolm.

You don't seem to have any knowledge of the statements of YN that provoked these discussions, as even if you had been correctly interpreting Malcolm's posts that you pulled up, none of the examples are remotely analogous to the things said in the meetings.

There's no need to try to defend Yeshi here. No one's attacking him or suggesting that anyone interested shouldn't attend these teachings.

Ha! Whatever dude. One doesn’t need to read too deeply into things when in the course of two consecutive posts Malcolm states

“Igor Berkhin told me Yeshe definitely rejects rebirth, and after the meeting, even went so far as to offer a course of “Dzogchen without rebirth” at one point.”

And

“without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

This certainly reads as discouraging. I’m merely advocating for the recognition that we shouldn’t hold anyone to A) comments made without allowing for further clarifying exposition and context and B) opinions stated sometime in the past which very possibly may have changed.

Clearly, Yeshi has already radically about-faced in one explicit comment he made around that time, indicating he had absolutely no interest in teaching. And now, low and behold, he’s teaching! So perhaps he’s pivoted on much more that just this. Like I said, perhaps he’s had a significant epiphany, realization, vision, dream or sign.. who knows? Let’s stay open minded..

I don't see the problem here.

The first statement is simply true, and was in the context of replying to someone who doubted Yeshi rejected the idea of rebirth in meeting a couple of years ago. I don't see any discouraging intent there, simply a stating of what happened.

And the second statement is also true, and was in the context of replying to someone suggesting that discarding the idea of rebirth is no big deal for a Dzogchen practitioner. So again it seems a perfectly normal, appropriate reply. I don't see any attempt to discourage or disparage there.

But clearly things have changed since then as you say. There was an extensive amount shared in that meeting that would have made this upcoming event seem like an impossibility, but here it is. Perhaps the rebirth opinion has changed too, perhaps not.

[Miorita]

This does not mitigate anything. Dzogchen practitioners also experience death, etc. Discovering instant presence is just the first step. It's not enough.

Of course. You need to remain in it. However, it completely changes the perspective. That's the very point. You still experience the shift of vision but don't experience it like an ordinary being.

I am afraid that if one has no realisation of path of seeing or at least has reached heat on path of application one will die and experience moment of death totally like an ordinary being. Maybe except for ability to cultivate some devotion/aspiration etc before dissolution of elements commences but that assumes circumstances of one's death are not rapid and traumatic. Hopefully Acharya can correct me if I am wrong

I don’t have a problem with that. I am an ordinary being who has been in a cult and was rejected by the ex cult members. Move aside!

[Malcolm]

At a surface glance,

Well, you probably should not take a superficial glance at anything I say.

“Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point”

And “without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

Contrasts with “if you can put yourself at the feet of qualified master who teaches Dzogchen from their own experience then there is no limit of benefit and you will receive transmission whether you are a Buddhist, an Catholic or an Alien.”

And “One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen”

Clearly, a Catholic who believes in everlasting heaven or hell, can not reconcile rebirth with their beliefs.

Nor can a materialist, nihilist, etc.

If they are interested in Dzogchen teachings, this means they have karmic traces for it and not otherwise. This means they will have enough interest to seek out a proper teacher and put those teachings into practice. And in time, and based on their own direct experience through practicing the Dharma, rather than beliefs, they will understand many things they did not understand before, as it should be. In Buddhadharma, in general, we do not coerce people in believing anything, but on the other hand, we certainly point out the issues the Buddha's Dharma was meant to resolve.

In any case, the original author of the statement, "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen," is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Beliefs will never lead to buddhahood, including believing in any kind of Buddhism. But one can confirm the truth of the teachings that exist in Buddhadharma, but that depends on personal experience and direct perception, even inference is not enough:

Just as gold is burnt, cut, and filed,
bhikṣus, the wise should
thoroughly investigate my teachings,
and not accept them due to devotion.

I just don't agree we have to force people to become card-carrying Buddhists if they are interested in Dzogchen teachings. That is religion, not Dharma. Dzogchen is beyond the worldly vehicles and the nine yānas. But that does not mean it does not confirm the essential truth of the Buddha's Dharma.

I hope recognizing that, it could inspire giving leeway for others to do the same, such as Yeshi in this case..

You've completely misjudged my post to tiny locust and its intent. It had nothing to do with YN.

[Kai lord]

This discussion/topic does not affect/concern me but I am just amazed that this thread somehow manages to drag out many of the ancient users out of dormant states.....

I am afraid that if one has no realisation of path of seeing or at least has reached heat on path of application one will die and experience moment of death totally like an ordinary being. Maybe except for ability to cultivate some devotion/aspiration etc before dissolution of elements commences but that assumes circumstances of one's death are not rapid and traumatic.

For Mahayoga and HYT, the 100% guaranteed point of liberation (no more rebirth) is the patience/forbearance stage on the path of application and beyond.

[Adamantine]

This seems a very strange line of argument. No one has suggested people can't change their minds, least of all Malcolm.

You don't seem to have any knowledge of the statements of YN that provoked these discussions, as even if you had been correctly interpreting Malcolm's posts that you pulled up, none of the examples are remotely analogous to the things said in the meetings.

There's no need to try to defend Yeshi here. No one's attacking him or suggesting that anyone interested shouldn't attend these teachings.

Ha! Whatever dude. One doesn’t need to read too deeply into things when in the course of two consecutive posts Malcolm states

“Igor Berkhin told me Yeshe definitely rejects rebirth, and after the meeting, even went so far as to offer a course of “Dzogchen without rebirth” at one point.”

And

“without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

This certainly reads as discouraging. I’m merely advocating for the recognition that we shouldn’t hold anyone to A) comments made without allowing for further clarifying exposition and context and B) opinions stated sometime in the past which very possibly may have changed.

Clearly, Yeshi has already radically about-faced in one explicit comment he made around that time, indicating he had absolutely no interest in teaching. And now, low and behold, he’s teaching! So perhaps he’s pivoted on much more that just this. Like I said, perhaps he’s had a significant epiphany, realization, vision, dream or sign.. who knows? Let’s stay open minded..

I don't see the problem here. It sounds like you're just trying to take issue with Malcolm.

The first statement is simply true, and was in the context of replying to someone who doubted Yeshi rejected the idea of rebirth in meeting a couple of years ago. I don't see any discouraging intent there, simply a stating of what happened.

And the second statement is also true, and was in the context of replying to someone suggesting that not believing in rebirth is no big deal for a Dzogchen practitioner. So again it seems a perfectly normal, appropriate reply. I don't see any attempt to discourage or disparage there.

But clearly things have changed since then as you say. There was an extensive amount shared in that meeting that would have made this upcoming event seem like an impossibility, but here it is. Perhaps the rebirth opinion has changed too, perhaps not.

I have absolutely no issue with Malcolm, quite the opposite, I respect him as one of my teachers. That said, here and elsewhere he has not exactly had much optimism Re: Yeshi or the future of the DC. At this point, there seems more room for optimism, and the fact that Yeshi has agreed to teach now likewise puts all other statements of his that could have provoked cynicism into question. It wasn’t long ago that after Yeshi agreed to be the spiritual director of Merigar, or whatever the title, that Malcom remarked that this was just a political / institutional ploy for them to keep their legal status.. well, with the teaching event now that seems to have been an incorrect read. It was an educated guess perhaps, based on Yeshi’s past statements.. yet clearly Yeshi likes to keep us all guessing.. and maybe that’s partly his intention.

[Malcolm]

This certainly reads as discouraging.

Sorry, but facts are facts. They might be uncomfortable for you, but they are what they are.

[Malcolm]

that Malcom remarked that this was just a political / institutional ploy for them to keep their legal status...

It's also a fact that this was an issue for Merigar. Now it is not.

People in the area were surprised by this announcement. It was quite unexpected.

[Adamantine]

If they are interested in Dzogchen teachings, this means they have karmic traces for it and not otherwise. This means they will have enough interest to seek out a proper teacher and put those teachings into practice. And in time, and based on their own direct experience through practicing the Dharma, rather than beliefs, they will understand many things they did not understand before, as it should be.

Ok, so up until that time—which could be many years—then for them:
“Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”?

Then how does one lead to the other?

I’m not quite sure how you don’t see any contradiction here.

[Sādhaka]

This discussion/topic does not affect/concern me but I am just amazed that this thread somehow manages to drag out many of the ancient users out of dormant states.....

I am afraid that if one has no realisation of path of seeing or at least has reached heat on path of application one will die and experience moment of death totally like an ordinary being. Maybe except for ability to cultivate some devotion/aspiration etc before dissolution of elements commences but that assumes circumstances of one's death are not rapid and traumatic.

For Mahayoga and HYT, the 100% guaranteed point of liberation (no more rebirth) is the patience/forbearance stage on the path of application and beyond.

Lol yeah Dechen Norbu is an Dharmawheel O.G.; as is Adamantine

[Adamantine]

This certainly reads as discouraging.

Sorry, but facts are facts. They might be uncomfortable for you, but they are what they are.

Nope, not uncomfortable at all… I’m just trying to be cautiously optimistic, and promoting that approach a bit..

[dharmafootsteps]

I have absolutely no issue with Malcolm, quite the opposite, I respect him as one of my teachers.

Yes, I apologize. I went back and noticed you mentioning that Malcolm is one of your teachers after replying. So I edit my post and removed the line you're replying to as it was inappropriate in that light, and I didn't want to infer you have any disrespect towards your teacher.

That said, here and elsewhere he has not exactly had much optimism Re: Yeshi or the future of the DC. At this point, there seems more room for optimism, and the fact that Yeshi has agreed to teach now likewise puts all other statements of his that could have provoked cynicism into question. It wasn’t long ago that after Yeshi agreed to be the spiritual director of Merigar, or whatever the title, that Malcom remarked that this was just a political / institutional ploy for them to keep their legal status.. well, with the teaching event now that seems to have been an incorrect read. It was an educated guess perhaps, based on Yeshi’s past statements.. yet clearly Yeshi likes to keep us all guessing.. and maybe that’s partly his intention.

It's unfortunate that some people are privy to more than others in all this, but that's mostly where the tension comes from. Also having somewhat more of an inside view than most people, perhaps it may help to say that I generally don't see anything negative in his posts on this subject because they're generally just in accord with what has actually happened. Perhaps it looks like a negative slant, or his own read, but honestly, I've not seen much from Malcolm here that would indicate his personal opinion of Yeshi, so I can only assume he's somewhat careful in that regard.

[Malcolm]

If they are interested in Dzogchen teachings, this means they have karmic traces for it and not otherwise. This means they will have enough interest to seek out a proper teacher and put those teachings into practice. And in time, and based on their own direct experience through practicing the Dharma, rather than beliefs, they will understand many things they did not understand before, as it should be.

Ok, so up until that time—which could be many years—then for them:
“Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”?

Then how does one lead to the other?

I’m not quite sure how you don’t see any contradiction here.

You will note that I said, "without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all." I said only "birth," and quite deliberately so. Why? Because birth results in the suffering of aging, illness, and death, which no one can deny. So, no contradiction, but nice try. Are you tiring of this game yet?

[Kim O'Hara]

Temporarily locked for review
- and a cooling-off period.

- and re-opened now that everyone has had a chance to catch up.



Kim