Either I was unclear or you should read more carefully——that was Igor.Adamantine wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:59 pmSo then following through with this view, it shouldn’t be at all surprising, or controversial then, if Yeshi “definitely rejects rebirth, and…. went so far as to offer a course of “Dzogchen without rebirth” at one point.”Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:23 pm
Just as I never asserted that we should parse out the teaching of rebirth in Dzogchen. I just said, repeating the words of ChNN, we don't need to believe anything in Dzogchen. Beliefs come and go, change, get dropped, etc. What we need in the Dharma is knowledge, personal and direct knowledge, not beliefs, including belief in rebirth. If we come to that conclusion based on our own experience, great. But if not, that's ok too.
You did when you quoted me.So why bring it up?
Also it still is difficult to reconcile the ease with which you promulgate this perspective right after writing:
"Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen...
Not at all. There is a difference between explaining what is taught in the text and guiding people who are interested in the teachings. For the former, one explains what they say. For the latter, one does not force beliefs on people.
Now in particular, since Dzogchen really cannot be confirmed through words, one does not have to believe anything. All the words of the mundane vehicles and the nine yanas are just abstract intellectual analysis, just so many words.
Since [dharmatā] is beyond the intellect, analysis, and words,
it is seen with the sense organs, but not with wisdom (prajñā).
Nevertheless:
In the natural Great Perfection,
though the mind that has a referential view is exhausted,
sometimes [the view] is confirmed with words.
--Sound Tantra
As they say seeing is "believing."
Perhaps you are being overly intellectual.I mean, you’ve gone to great lengths to try and explain how asserting both perspectives is compatible for you, or that they are really the same perspective, but admittedly I’m having a hard time following your logic on this one.
As I mentioned, the Kalamas Sūtra presents a Buddhist Pascal's wager.How could we have direct knowledge of death, the bardo, or rebirth until we actually die? Unless of course we have memories of a prior life or death, -but even the validity of those memories could be questioned as fantasy or delusion… So if we are to seriously apply ourselves to teachings and a path which has so much emphasis on birth, death, bardo and rebirth, then we should have some degree of confidence in these things, based on inference, not direct experience, imho.
But in Dzogchen, intellectual beliefs don't cut it, even if sometimes we have to explain things in words.