Yeshi's really back!

[Malcolm]

Just as I never asserted that we should parse out the teaching of rebirth in Dzogchen. I just said, repeating the words of ChNN, we don't need to believe anything in Dzogchen. Beliefs come and go, change, get dropped, etc. What we need in the Dharma is knowledge, personal and direct knowledge, not beliefs, including belief in rebirth. If we come to that conclusion based on our own experience, great. But if not, that's ok too.

So then following through with this view, it shouldn’t be at all surprising, or controversial then, if Yeshi “definitely rejects rebirth, and…. went so far as to offer a course of “Dzogchen without rebirth” at one point.”

Either I was unclear or you should read more carefully——that was Igor.

So why bring it up?

You did when you quoted me.

Also it still is difficult to reconcile the ease with which you promulgate this perspective right after writing:

"Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen...

Not at all. There is a difference between explaining what is taught in the text and guiding people who are interested in the teachings. For the former, one explains what they say. For the latter, one does not force beliefs on people.

Now in particular, since Dzogchen really cannot be confirmed through words, one does not have to believe anything. All the words of the mundane vehicles and the nine yanas are just abstract intellectual analysis, just so many words.

Since [dharmatā] is beyond the intellect, analysis, and words,
it is seen with the sense organs, but not with wisdom (prajñā).

Nevertheless:

In the natural Great Perfection,
though the mind that has a referential view is exhausted,
sometimes [the view] is confirmed with words.

--Sound Tantra

As they say seeing is "believing."

I mean, you’ve gone to great lengths to try and explain how asserting both perspectives is compatible for you, or that they are really the same perspective, but admittedly I’m having a hard time following your logic on this one.

Perhaps you are being overly intellectual.

How could we have direct knowledge of death, the bardo, or rebirth until we actually die? Unless of course we have memories of a prior life or death, -but even the validity of those memories could be questioned as fantasy or delusion… So if we are to seriously apply ourselves to teachings and a path which has so much emphasis on birth, death, bardo and rebirth, then we should have some degree of confidence in these things, based on inference, not direct experience, imho.

As I mentioned, the Kalamas Sūtra presents a Buddhist Pascal's wager.

But in Dzogchen, intellectual beliefs don't cut it, even if sometimes we have to explain things in words.

[Malcolm]

So if you see no issue with teaching Dzogchen without rebirth,

You really do need to read more carefully. I never said we could teach Dzogchen sans rebirth. I said that not believing in rebirth was not a barrier to studying and practicing Dzogchen. I am pretty sure that if someone _really_ practices Dzogchen, they will begin to have the five eyes and so on, whether they started out believing in rebirth or not.

why did you share this here in this thread?

I was just confirming what someone else said.

Certainly on an Internet forum we have to, or there wouldn’t be too many posts…

The latter would be preferable, in many respects.

[Ayu]

I received a PM by Vasana, asking for to unlock this topic in order to add a video that contains a comment by Yeshi on this topic.
I thought, Vasana was willing to post it himself, but now he doesn't log in since days. I think quoting him here will have the same effect.

Hi Ayu,

Here is the video.



Other things to add to the discussion: My reincarnation film

& the book called The lamp that enlightens Narrow Minds.

If the topic is reopened, I may add a post gently explaining why we should be Patient with the process, and not elaborate on anecdotal accounts from others,even if they are seen as more recent accounts than decades old discussions.

It's not good for the Dzogchen Community's reputation,our unique set of Teachings/Terma (Longsal cycle)

It's also not fair or compassionate to Yeshe's current and future students and our own personal practice. I want to emphasize these points in a way that is as 'non-violent' and as peaceful as I am able to.

you can quote me on any or all the above in this message

Thank you.

If anybody wants to add constructive comments - the thread will be kept open for a short while.

[treehuggingoctopus]

the thread will be kept open for a short while.

Please keep it open. If for some reason this is not possible, just lock it now, this second.

Re-opening a thread "for a short while" is really pointless, and potentially very divisive.

[Ayu]

Okay, topic locked as you recommend.
I have no clue in this matter.

A better locking note will follow with the consent of the team.

[Kim O'Hara]

We have locked this topic mainly because DW does not seem to be the right place for discussing DC's internal affairs.
We can't moderate these discussions properly because they are too specific to the DC community. Also, we feel that some of these discussions would be better on a members-only forum than on a public forum like DW.

The DW moderation team would prefer that DC members could have their own place for discussing their operations - perhaps their own website, bulletin board or private facebook group that they could moderate however they see fit.

The best place for further discussion of a way forward is the Moderation Discussion forum - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewforum.php?f=128


Kim