Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen

[CuriousMonk]

Dear All,
.

Being a deep-rooted Hindu I have read here, that higher Bodhisattvas defeated the Hindu deities like (Lord Siva); and Hindu deities like Rudra (an angry form of Siva) are actually considered hell beings in Vajrayana. So, if I take refuge in the Buddha Dharma, would the Hindu deities punish me, and will I be sent to hell?

Hindu deities ≠ hell beings, they are worldly beings and thus not sources of refuge.
Even if they were, or were beings that could punish you and send you to hell then taking refuge in the three jewels would protect you from that.

The question implies a Hindu point of view. But even if you maintain that point of view, the Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu, so it would be ok… …although it’s a bit moot because if you take refuge then you’re affirming a Buddhist view, not Hindu.

Secondly, I was once consulting a Sowa Rigpa doctor in Delhi for my mother, and I casually mentioned to him my interest in the Buddha Dharma; he strictly advised me not to leave my religion and convert to Buddhism because otherwise, I'll have trouble at the time of death. He said this multiple times on my subsequent visits too. I couldn't understand the basis of his warning but got scared.

I wonder if he was influenced by HHDL recommending against people converting to Buddhism. IDK, but HH is also (obviously) fine with people becoming Buddhist if they feel truly called too.
From a Dzogchen perspective, if you have the good karma to be interested in the teachings and the opportunity to receive them …you should do that.

Sounds interesting that HHDL has recommended against conversion. Maybe that was the reason that the doc advised me not to change my dharma.

Regarding Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu, not all has been said in a positive light in the Puranas e.g. Skanda and Agni Purana.

[ThreeVows]

Does taking refuge in the 1st Jewel i.e. Buddha means taking refuge in our own primordial state or does it mean taking refuge in the highest beings who are called the Buddhas (e.g. Shakyamuni and Akshobhya)?

I think, FWIW, that there are various levels of understanding. The coarser levels relate to basically taking refuge in the manifest form of a Buddha that appears within the perception of ordinary beings, which may be considered to be an 'external' thing, but on a deeper level, one might understand that this is a nirmanakaya manifestation and one can understand the Buddha as being for instance the Dharmakaya itself, or the realization of the nature of mind itself. These are not necessarily contradictory.

As the Buddha said, 'One Who Sees the Dhamma Sees The Buddha, One Who Sees The Buddha Sees the Dhamma.'

FWIW

[CuriousMonk]

"The Absolute void is Bhairava who is beyond the senses and the mind, beyond all the categories of these instruments. From the point of view of the human mind, He is most void; from the point of view of Reality, He is most full, for He is the source of all manifestation."
- Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra

The above could be an example of a bridge leading from Hinduism to Buddhism. The Truth is the Truth, even if people are reluctant to give up their ideas of, and attachments to god(s).

Yes, terms like 'emptiness' and 'void' have been mentioned in multiple places in scriptures of the Sanatana Dharma, however, I'm not sure if it is the equivalent to the concept of Sunyata of Buddhism, or if it rather denotes the nature of Brahman/Atman/Self.

[ThreeVows]

How to reconcile all of those positions?

I mean, it may not be a liked position here, but the way to reconcile these positions I think relatively easily is to realize that these 'hindu gods or goddesses' are essentially manifestations of awakened mind that manifest in, at times, an ordinary way to the minds of beings who relate best to such manifestations.

It is a bit like how a realized master hypothetically could work as a janitor in a library and manifest within the perception of beings as just an ordinary janitor, if that is what their merit allows them to discern, but in truth, the janitor is a realized being.

If the beings in the library perceive the janitor as just an ordinary janitor, they may be benefitted in subtle levels via their connection with this realized janitor, but their view is not ultimately 'buddhist' and as long as they hold that view, they will not realize the nature of mind via interactions with that janitor. They would have to overcome their 'wrong views' in order to realize the nature of mind.

So if, for example, you perceive Shiva as being an ordinary, samsaric being, who is external to yourself, and you take refuge in this conception of Shiva, then the path to liberation, basically, is cut off as long as you hold such a view. Nonetheless, the relationship that you have with Shiva may benefit you in unexpected ways, given that Shiva in truth is a manifestation of awakened mind... even though you do not, currently, know that, and even though you currently have wrong views, similar to how one might perceive the janitor as being an uneducated, stupid fellow with no extraordinary qualities.

Various Mahayana Sutras say things to the effect of, "Bodhisattvas manifest in accord with the needs of beings. If a being needs to work with a sravaka, they manifest as a sravaka. If a being needs to work with Shakra, they manifest as Shakra. If the being needs to relate to a child, they manifest as a child..." Etc.

Many of these manifestations may not be discerned as being manifestations of awakened mind, and again, as long as a being holds such inferior views towards the manifestations, they will not realize liberation.

FWIW.

[CuriousMonk]

Buddhism considers such entities to be wordly beings caught in samsara.

Mipham cites the Guhyasamaja tantra and says that Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu are emanations of the three vajras - the body, speech, and mind of the Buddha - Brahma being the body, Shiva the speech, and Vishnu the mind. He also says they are in essence the lords of the three families - Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara, and Vajrapani - manifesting as guardians of the world. This is in his commentary to his Tashi prayer.

Yeah, and some "hindu" schools consider Buddha an avatar of vishnu, and Jesus Christ an avatar of dhruva rishi, if I'm not mistaken.

How to reconcile all of those positions?

(By the way, you have not even explained what "hindu" means here. There are theist, atheist, non-theist, and I'm pretty sure also pan-theist hindus. I've encountered some communist hindus too. Then there are tantric ones, vedic ones, advaita ones, syncretist ones, and quite a few more. They all contradict each other to some degree - which seems to be not a huge problem for most of them.)

But it's true: When practicing dzogchen then having the right view is of utmost importance. Not because you'll end up in eternal hell if you don't take the right view, but because it simply won't work as you're putting your own misconceptual understanding onto those teachings. The good news are that you will get the view wrong at the beginning almost certainly, that's why someone needs to patiently reintroduce you to it. And that's the role of the teacher.

Hindu is a term that refers to the followers of the Sanatana dharma. Sanatana dharma has its base in the Agama and Nigama which have their source in the Vedas. It's true that there are multiple Hindu sects that contradict each other on the surface, for example, Advaita, Vishishta Advaita, Dvaitavaad, Samkhya, Mimansa, Yoga, Shaivism, Vaishnavism, etc. however, they all coexist together because of a few reasons, I think the strongest of them are: almost all Hindus concur on the point of Advaita/Absolutism/Monism i.e. the existence of an Absolute, which then manifests as a Deity which can be worshiped as Form of the absolute (since we cannot perceive the absolute Itself); here they all come to an agreement - one can worship a large number of deities as the symbol of Absolute, including deities of the other cultures like Jesus. Another point is there is no refuge system in Hinduism as per my understanding, there are things like Sanskritization or an informal Havana but no refuge.

[Malcolm]

Choose one and stick with it.

Not necessarily. Some examples:

Robert Edward Kennedy (born June 20, 1933) is an American Jesuit priest, professor of theology, psychoanalyst and Zen rōshi in the White Plum lineage.

Ama Samy (Arul Maria Arokiasamy), S.J., born in 1936, is an Indian Zen master and Jesuit priest.

James Ishmael Ford (Zeno Myoun, Roshi) is an American Zen Buddhist priest and a retired Unitarian Universalist minister.

Someone who really understands the meaning of Buddhadharma will not cherish a refuge in these theistic traditions, even if they maintain ties to them.

[CuriousMonk]

Does taking refuge in the 1st Jewel i.e. Buddha means taking refuge in our own primordial state or does it mean taking refuge in the highest beings who are called the Buddhas (e.g. Shakyamuni and Akshobhya)?

Also, if I continue my puja of the Hindu deities and keep following the Hindu rituals after taking refuge in the Buddha Dharma, which means I would still allocate a certain level of high respect to the Hindu Deities and system. So, would I consider the Hindu deities to be Bodhisattvas then? What would be the correct attitude to adopt towards the Hindu deities, scriptures, and rituals after the refuge?

As for your first question, ultimately, there is no Buddha apart from your mind. But there is also no contradiction between going for outer refuge to the Buddha and understanding that Buddha himself was pointing you to your state. So it us both.

You can continue to respect your ancestral tradition, as the Buddha recommended in Mahaparinbbaba sutta.

The correct attitude towards these traditions is that their ultimate view is mistaken, but many if their practices have mundane benefits.

But, why would one seek mundane benefits from those worldly deities if one has already taken refuge in the Three Jewels and the powers of all the Buddhas and powerful Bodhisattvas are already there for me? Is it because the Hindu deities have already vowed allegiance to the Buddha Dharma and thus indirectly are part of Buddhism, but they just help the beings in a worldly capacity? Kindly clarify.

[Sādhaka]

Sounds interesting that HHDL has recommended against conversion.

I think that he just means don't change your religion for Buddhadharma unless you're really sure that you have a karmic connection.

If I remember correctly, his biggest example of this was a group of Tamils who wanted to convert to Buddhism only to spite their oppressors; not because they were genuinely interested in Buddhadharma.

[Virgo]

If you have already taken refuge under the Three Jewels, then what is the necessity of seeking Jyotish remedies from Hindu deities? Doesn't the refuge in the Three Jewels provide a remedy for All afflictions?

The main purpose of taking refuge in the Three Jewels is to attain realization along with liberation. There are many methods we can apply to relieve problems (remedial measures) and to help achieve worldly aims as well, but this is because achieving that allows us to practice more for sentient beings.

I practice Jyotish (though I am a Westerner). I am familiar with these remedies and how effective they are. The great thing about Jyotish is that it has very specific remedies for specific afflictions. These remedies are also generally very easy to apply. In addition, I also apply Buddhist remedial measures. All remedies, no matter Buddhist or nonBuddhist can only work to a certain extent due to our karma. Nevertheless, it is better to remove 80, 60, 40, or eve 20 percent of an affliction if we can rather than remove none.

Virgo

[Dechen Norbu]

Dear All,

I am a Hindu and I have been an avid reader of this forum for a couple of years, but have not yet posted here.

Welcome!

Acharya Malcolm says that understanding the view clearly is of the utmost importance before practicing Vajrayana and Dzogchen, otherwise, the practitioner might land in undesirable states.

Those statements have context.
Nobody starts practicing with a correct understanding of the view, but some basic knowledge is important. View, conduct and practice work in a positive self feeding loop.

Also, Hindu views (esp. Advaita Vedanta) are the polar opposite of the Mahayanist views of dependent origination and sunyata. Therefore, I cannot be both a Hindu and a Buddhist, because then my beliefs would be contradictory and beyond reconciliation. Hence, first I have to get a complete understanding of the Buddhist views and then take refuge in the Buddha Dharma, then only can I become a serious Buddhist practitioner.

See above. When you start practicing, View is just a fancy word for belief. Someone told you something and you decided to trust his word. It might have been a book, messages on a virtual board, conversations with others, but somehow these ideas made sense. You liked them. Now you want to know more.
But we don't have any alternative to start practicing with a vague, poorly understood view in the worst case, or with a good yet purely intellectual understanding, about it, in the best case. To be honest, how things will go from there deppend on the practitioner. You might introduce all sorts of counter productive ideas if your intellectual understanding is poor, or a certain innocence might even benefit your practice because you didn't become too attached to concepts. Or, if you studied a lot without practicing, you may have jailed yourself inside a conceptual cage of your own making. So, we never know. That's why having a qualified teacher is important. The best thing is, despite whatever you learned intellectually, starting with things you can know through your own experience, while learning the framework necessary for you to understand and connect those experiences in the context of a working path. Dzogchen works a lot in this way. You need experience, but you also need to understand the meaning and how to work with the experience you got. So, you don't have to compromise too much before getting your feet wet. You don't need to make a vow, saying loud and clear "I'm now a Dzogchenpa!". You are a human being searching for a way out of confusion. That's enough.

Being a deep-rooted Hindu I have read here, that higher Bodhisattvas defeated the Hindu deities like (Lord Siva); and Hindu deities like Rudra (an angry form of Siva) are actually considered hell beings in Vajrayana. So, if I take refuge in the Buddha Dharma, would the Hindu deities punish me, and will I be sent to hell?

Why don't you ask a Hindu deity the next time you meet one?
Don't let yourself be shackled by ideas other people came up with. Be a little skeptical. It won't hurt you. Try stuff. Consider the rest as a sort of working hypothesis. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, maybe it's partially true, maybe it's beyond such dichotomy. It deppends on what we are talking about. Just don't let the ideas of others paralyze you without knowing their veracity. Leaving the mess that is the experience of samsara is your own responsibility. Seek help, but don't become dependent. Devotion for a master comes from the insight that sprouts from you working under his advice.

Secondly, I was once consulting a Sowa Rigpa doctor in Delhi for my mother, and I casually mentioned to him my interest in the Buddha Dharma; he strictly advised me not to leave my religion and convert to Buddhism because otherwise, I'll have trouble at the time of death. He said this multiple times on my subsequent visits too. I couldn't understand the basis of his warning but got scared.

See? Some people believe in the weirdest stuff you miggt imagine. Others, with many unfortunate psychological issues, lend them their trust too easily, to the point of killings themselves to catch a ride on a comet (or something like that). My point is, don't be scared because of the religious beliefs of others. Do your own practice, follow the advice of those whose wisdom became clear for you, and always keep in mind that the practice of Dharma, Dzogchen in special, is aimed to make you more independent, more free, not to bind you in belief upon belief.

So, how can a deep-rooted cultural Hindu resolve the above paradox and be in the good light of both the Hindu and Buddhist deities and still be able to take refuge in the Buddha Dharma?

Regards

In my opinion, you shouldn't care in the slightest about being in good light of fantasies created by humans. Get rid of those fears. If a deity of some sort gets pissed because you are tackling your own way to be free from suffering and confusion, that's a deity you shouldn't care about.

So, worry less about labels or pleasing deities. You are a human being, intelligent, who wants to stop the samsaric experience. Your sole allegiance should be to that purpose. Devotion is something that will grow out of it, helping you in its pursuit. Instead of a shackle, it will feel like a great expansion, like seeing the dawn of the sun after a very dark night. If devotion feels limiting and claustrophobic, it's just fear and insecurity. Don't mistake one for the other.

Best wishes!

[Malcolm]

I'm here to learn about Buddha Dharma - its views of dependent origination and sunyata.

You should read Nāgārjuna and Āryadeva. If you can do so in Sanskrit, so much the better.

You should also read Śantarakṣita's Tattvasamgraha, where he goes through a detailed analysis of various siddhāntas.

[CuriousMonk]

Dear All,

I am a Hindu and I have been an avid reader of this forum for a couple of years, but have not yet posted here.

Welcome!

Acharya Malcolm says that understanding the view clearly is of the utmost importance before practicing Vajrayana and Dzogchen, otherwise, the practitioner might land in undesirable states.

Those statements have context.
Nobody starts practicing with a correct understanding of the view, but some basic knowledge is important. View, conduct and practice work in a positive self feeding loop.

Also, Hindu views (esp. Advaita Vedanta) are the polar opposite of the Mahayanist views of dependent origination and sunyata. Therefore, I cannot be both a Hindu and a Buddhist, because then my beliefs would be contradictory and beyond reconciliation. Hence, first I have to get a complete understanding of the Buddhist views and then take refuge in the Buddha Dharma, then only can I become a serious Buddhist practitioner.

See above. When you start practicing, View is just a fancy word for belief. Someone told you something and you decided to trust his word. It might have been a book, messages on a virtual board, conversations with others, but somehow these ideas made sense. You liked them. Now you want to know more.
But we don't have any alternative to start practicing with a vague, poorly understood view in the worst case, or with a good yet purely intellectual understanding, about it, in the best case. To be honest, how things will go from there deppend on the practitioner. You might introduce all sorts of counter productive ideas if your intellectual understanding is poor, or a certain innocence might even benefit your practice because you didn't become too attached to concepts. Or, if you studied a lot without practicing, you may have jailed yourself inside a conceptual cage of your own making. So, we never know. That's why having a qualified teacher is important. The best thing is, despite whatever you learned intellectually, starting with things you can know through your own experience, while learning the framework necessary for you to understand and connect those experiences in the context of a working path. Dzogchen works a lot in this way. You need experience, but you also need to understand the meaning and how to work with the experience you got. So, you don't have to compromise too much before getting your feet wet. You don't need to make a vow, saying loud and clear "I'm now a Dzogchenpa!". You are a human being searching for a way out of confusion. That's enough.

Being a deep-rooted Hindu I have read here, that higher Bodhisattvas defeated the Hindu deities like (Lord Siva); and Hindu deities like Rudra (an angry form of Siva) are actually considered hell beings in Vajrayana. So, if I take refuge in the Buddha Dharma, would the Hindu deities punish me, and will I be sent to hell?

Why don't you ask a Hindu deity the next time you meet one?
Don't let yourself be shackled by ideas other people came up with. Be a little skeptical. It won't hurt you. Try stuff. Consider the rest as a sort of working hypothesis. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, maybe it's partially true, maybe it's beyond such dichotomy. It deppends on what we are talking about. Just don't let the ideas of others paralyze you without knowing their veracity. Leaving the mess that is the experience of samsara is your own responsibility. Seek help, but don't become dependent. Devotion for a master comes from the insight that sprouts from you working under his advice.

Secondly, I was once consulting a Sowa Rigpa doctor in Delhi for my mother, and I casually mentioned to him my interest in the Buddha Dharma; he strictly advised me not to leave my religion and convert to Buddhism because otherwise, I'll have trouble at the time of death. He said this multiple times on my subsequent visits too. I couldn't understand the basis of his warning but got scared.

See? Some people believe in the weirdest stuff you miggt imagine. Others, with many unfortunate psychological issues, lend them their trust too easily, to the point of killings themselves to catch a ride on a comet (or something like that). My point is, don't be scared because of the religious beliefs of others. Do your own practice, follow the advice of those whose wisdom became clear for you, and always keep in mind that the practice of Dharma, Dzogchen in special, is aimed to make you more independent, more free, not to bind you in belief upon belief.

So, how can a deep-rooted cultural Hindu resolve the above paradox and be in the good light of both the Hindu and Buddhist deities and still be able to take refuge in the Buddha Dharma?

Regards

In my opinion, you shouldn't care in the slightest about being in good light of fantasies created by humans. Get rid of those fears. If a deity of some sort gets pissed because you are tackling your own way to be free from suffering and confusion, that's a deity you shouldn't care about.

So, worry less about labels or pleasing deities. You are a human being, intelligent, who wants to stop the samsaric experience. Your sole allegiance should be to that purpose. Devotion is something that will grow out of it, helping you in its pursuit. Instead of a shackle, it will feel like a great expansion, like seeing the dawn of the sun after a very dark night. If devotion feels limiting and claustrophobic, it's just fear and insecurity. Don't mistake one for the other.

Best wishes!

Thanks, for your kind and thoughtful words Norbu La. I went through your elaborate response multiple times and can see the profoundness of it all...

[CuriousMonk]

I'm here to learn about Buddha Dharma - its views of dependent origination and sunyata.

You should read Nāgārjuna and Āryadeva. If you can do so in Sanskrit, so much the better.

You should also read Śantarakṣita's Tattvasamgraha, where he goes through a detailed analysis of various siddhāntas.

Thanks, Namdrol La! I see Śantarakṣita's Tattvasamgraha contains a critical analysis of various contemporary Indian spiritual doctrines and various other existential questions like that of karma, the existence/non-existence of a self, etc. I guess this is what I want at this moment. And of course, the works of Nāgārjuna and Āryadeva represent the epitome of Mahayana philosophy.

These scriptures would be really helpful to me in understanding the intricacies of the Buddhist view and tread one more step forward on the path of Dharma. I'm not sure if my knowledge of Sanskrit is apt enough to study such profound texts, but I'll try to first pick up English translations to get the sense, and meanwhile work on my Sanskrit to get back to the original texts later on.

[Miorita]

How would you see your own death as a mother and a deity?
You may, but it’s been already done. Including fulfilling the wishes of the deity for worldly boons.
You got scared because the doctor’s intent was to get you scared.
I hope it assists you.

[natusake]

With regard to your doctors chastizement, there is no need to worry. If you fully go to refuge in the three jewels, without any doubt in Buddhadharna, dharma protecting deities will thwart any attempt to punish you. And if doubt still remains, there is no basis to punish you, as you have not committed any alleged wrongdoing according to them.

Moreover, if you practice Dzogchen and come to know the meaning of the basis, then as it says in the suttas:

"When a monk's mind is thus freed, O monks, neither the gods with Indra, nor the gods with Brahma, nor the gods with the Lord of Creatures (Pajaapati), when searching will find[36] on what the consciousness of one thus gone (tathaagata) is based. Why is that? One who has thus gone is no longer traceable here and now, so I say.

[saurabmarjara]

Being a deep-rooted Hindu I have read here, that higher Bodhisattvas defeated the Hindu deities like (Lord Siva); and Hindu deities like Rudra (an angry form of Siva) are actually considered hell beings in Vajrayana. So, if I take refuge in the Buddha Dharma, would the Hindu deities punish me, and will I be sent to hell?

Fear should never be the basis for what religious beliefs you want to adopt. Intelligence should be the basis. What in the Shiv Purana makes you feel that Shiv is intelligent ? Just burning Kam Deva with the third eye does not mean that the person has great intelligence. Also, see the great difference between the images of Shiv and the Buddha...... The BUddha is shown as serene, calm, happy, and what about Shiv ? His phallus is being worshiped. People think that the phallus represents the Father-Mother God. But think carefully. Would God ever want his chief representational image to be a phallus ? So you can reject Shiv and his family.

Secondly, I was once consulting a Sowa Rigpa doctor in Delhi for my mother, and I casually mentioned to him my interest in the Buddha Dharma; he strictly advised me not to leave my religion and convert to Buddhism because otherwise, I'll have trouble at the time of death. He said this multiple times on my subsequent visits too. I couldn't understand the basis of his warning but got scared.

Fear should never be the basis of accepting or rejecting religious beliefs.

So, how can a deep-rooted cultural Hindu resolve the above paradox and be in the good light of both the Hindu and Buddhist deities and still be able to take refuge in the Buddha Dharma?

"Better than worshiping gods is obedience to the laws of righteousness." -Buddha

[Vasana]

From Namkai Norbu's public book Starting the Evolution.

What is Dzogchen

You can consider it a philosophy, a religion, or a spiritual path, if you wish, but it is not like that. It is important to understand that Dzogchen is not really a kind of school or tradition. Dzogchen is our real nature, a potentiality that we all have. It is a very ancient knowledge, transmitted and taught. The way that teaches the methods to discover that potentiality and use it in our lives, is called Dzogchen teaching. We can follow it and learn how to discover our real nature: Total (chen) Perfection (dzog).

Dzogchen and Religion

Human beings have created different cultures, philosophies, and religions in different times and places. Someone who is interested in the Dzogchen teaching must be aware of this and know how to work with different cultures, without becoming conditioned by their external forms.

For example, some people might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bön, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is. If we decide to follow a spiritual teaching, we are convinced that it is necessary for us to change something, such as our way of dressing, eating, behaving, and so on. But to practice the Dzogchen teaching there is no need to adhere to any religious doctrine or to enter a monastic order, or to blindly accept the teachings and become a “Dzogchenist.” All of these things can, in fact, create serious obstacles to true knowledge. Monks or nuns, without giving up their vows, can practice Dzogchen, as can a Catholic priest, an office worker, a laborer, and so on, without having to abandon their role in society, because Dzogchen does not change people from the outside. Rather it awakens them internally.

Dzogchen is not a school or sect or a religious system. It is simply a state of knowledge that masters have transmitted beyond any limits of a school or monastic tradition. The lineage of the Dzogchen teaching has included masters belonging to all social classes: farmers, nomads, nobles, monks, and great religious figures, from every spiritual tradition or sect. A person who is really interested in these teachings should understand their fundamental principle without letting themselves become conditioned by the limits of a tradition.

https://melong.com/the-newest-public-bo ... available/

[PadmaVonSamba]

Sounds interesting that HHDL has recommended against conversion.

Instead of jumping into the topic of conversion, or even into dzogchen specifically, what is there about buddhadharma that you want to practice, or that seems to attract you to it?

Maybe start there.