Permanent/Static phenomena as unconditioned

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newBee
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Permanent/Static phenomena as unconditioned

Post by newBee »

Hello Everyone,
I'm new here and new as far as the Gelug Teaching is concerned, so I'm sorry if my doubts are basic and elementary for You. I've been studying the Prasangika tenet system only for some months.
Also please excuse my English, that's very poor. Please be patient!

As for the definition of permanent (Unchanging, static, not momentarily changing) I'm totally ok.

What I can't understand is why they say "Static phenomena are unaffected by causes and conditions" (for example Dr. Alexander Berzin in "Affirmation and Negation Phenomena: Gelug Definitions" https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... efinitions).
Isn't this contrary to the Law of Dependent Arising? Is it because "MOMENTARILY" is always implied with these phenomena?

At first I thought that unconditioned could solely mean unproduced, or unaffected by causes and conditions as far as the first level of Dependent Arising is concerned. But even so, I think, permanent phenomena can have a mutual dependence (the state of being empty of a particular object is related to the existence of the object itself to which "that Emptiness" is referred and at the same time the object couldn't exist without being empty).
Moreover, permanent phenomena are dependent on designation by terms and concepts at a subtler level of Dependent Arising, otherwise wouldn't "unaffected by causes and conditions" mean "inherently"? Which is impossible, of course, since the only way to exsist is conventionally.

As His Holiness the Dalai Lama states "All existents -be they impermanent or permanent- exist depending on other factors." (for example in the book "Searching for the Self" pag. 7)

I'm wrong somewhere evidentlly and I think I've misunderstood something Very Important.
Please, will you help me? I'm a little embarrassed to ask something so very easy, but I can't find anything explaining my doubt straightforwardly.

Thank You in advance.
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Ayu
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Re: Permanent/Static phenomena as unconditioned

Post by Ayu »

I'm no good scholar, but reading your post I wonder what things do you think are permanent? Examples?

Often, the shastras only want to point out what Nagarjuna stated in the first shastra of the Middle Way () :
I salute the Fully Enlightened One, the best of orators, who taught the doctrine of dependent origination, according to which there is neither cessation nor origination, neither annihilation nor the eternal, neither singularity nor plurality, neither the coming nor the going [of any dharma, for the purpose of nirvāṇa characterized by] the auspicious cessation of hypostatization.[17]
(Source Wikipedia)
Everything is negated in this context even the negation.
Therefore I assume, the text you are talking about, is trying to make you realise that there is nothing permanent?
Is that possible?

This means, the statement could be understiod differently:
IF there was anything permanent, it had to be independent from dependent arising. Therfore no thing can be permanent.

The old language lacks our words like if/then, I believe.
Malcolm
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Re: Permanent/Static phenomena as unconditioned

Post by Malcolm »

newBee wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:28 pm
What I can't understand is why they say "Static phenomena are unaffected by causes and conditions"...

Isn't this contrary to the Law of Dependent Arising? Is it because "MOMENTARILY" is always implied with these phenomena?
Classically, there are only three kinds of uncompounded phenomena: space and the two types of cessation. To this we can add emptiness, the nature of things, which is also uncompounded.
newBee
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Re: Permanent/Static phenomena as unconditioned

Post by newBee »

Hello!
Thank You Malcolm, thank You Ayu, thank You both for your kind response.

I knew I still have A LOT to study, for sure my lifespan is not long enough, but I'm not discouraged. To study the Dharma and become a better human being is my purpose.
I just realized that I need to revise and check again what I thought I had already learned!

Thank You for the precious lesson.
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Ayu
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Re: Permanent/Static phenomena as unconditioned

Post by Ayu »

newBee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:44 pm Hello!
Thank You Malcolm, thank You Ayu, thank You both for your kind response.

I knew I still have A LOT to study, for sure my lifespan is not long enough, but I'm not discouraged. To study the Dharma and become a better human being is my purpose.
I just realized that I need to revise and check again what I thought I had already learned!

Thank You for the precious lesson.
As far as I was told, in a course about the Lamrim of Tsongkha, the correct way of studying the Dharma is to "listen (read), contemplate and meditate" as three steps tbat have to be taken again and again page by page, sort of.
That's different from our common way of studying when we just put as much contents into our memory as possible.

IMO it's a great advantage to have a teacher. If tbey understood the matter, they are able to convey the topic by their presence as well (in addition to listen, contemplate & meditate).
That works as a great help to better understanding.
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