nirvana mathematically not possible

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Anders
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by Anders »

BillSocrate wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:25 pm I'm asking this question in seriousness and sincerely. Please do not troll. I believe in thevara buddhism - danna/kama create wealth/luck and practicing detachments finally set one escape the rebirth coz you don't cling on anything any more. Meditate a bit - understand the theory more. BUT, I came up with the question that no one could answer so far.

We have been here for infinite life - coz we haven't escape the rebirth yet if I do, I won't be typing here and you won't be reading here. No new lifes are created - they just transformed from dog to human, human to dog so on. If sentient being (life) can really escape rebirth (nirvana) then since we have infinite time, eventually every living being would reach nirvana and no one exists in the Universe.

Here's how you picture this clearly, there are sand grains in the beach. If I tell you human generations pick 1 grain at a time, eventually all sands are gone. I can gurantee that coz we have infinite time. The theory about nirvana also state that a life/soul is gone forever.
This is true supposing a finite number of outcomes, including nirvana.

You can't guarantee that if there are also an infinite number of outcomes besides Nirvana.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Here's another approach to infinity and the afterlife - Death and What Happens Next - https://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/d ... glish.html

:reading:
Kim
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ThreeVows
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by ThreeVows »

BillSocrate wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:25 pm I believe in thevara buddhism
Kaccayanagotta Sutta:
When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
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Aemilius
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by Aemilius »

ThreeVows wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:41 pm
BillSocrate wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:25 pm I believe in thevara buddhism
Kaccayanagotta Sutta:
When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
Neither does 'cessation' exist (literally). Who is seeing the "cessation"?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:39 am
ThreeVows wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:41 pm
BillSocrate wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:25 pm I believe in thevara buddhism
Kaccayanagotta Sutta:
When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
Neither does 'cessation' exist (literally). Who is seeing the "cessation"?
The arising of appearances is like seeing rabbit shapes in clouds. As soon as the air moves, the rabbits are gone. But they were never truly there to begin with.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Aemilius
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:08 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:39 am
ThreeVows wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:41 pm

Kaccayanagotta Sutta:

Neither does 'cessation' exist (literally). Who is seeing the "cessation"?
The arising of appearances is like seeing rabbit shapes in clouds. As soon as the air moves, the rabbits are gone. But they were never truly there to begin with.
The point is who or what is seeing the rabbits, clouds and non-rabbits?
Also, it doesn't help to think that the carrot (or other food stuff) is not really there, your stomach still gets hungry. You still have a metabolism to feed, even if the carrots etc.. are illusory.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by Aemilius »

Just in case someone didn't know: Carrots are merely imputed on their parts. Or they are imputed on "something" that appears there because of causes and conditions. Thus carrots are not self-existent. You see them as "carrots" because of your habits of imputation, and because of your former experiences in life involved with your need and habit of consuming foodstuff.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:13 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:08 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:39 am

Neither does 'cessation' exist (literally). Who is seeing the "cessation"?
The arising of appearances is like seeing rabbit shapes in clouds. As soon as the air moves, the rabbits are gone. But they were never truly there to begin with.
The point is who or what is seeing the rabbits, clouds and non-rabbits?
Also, it doesn't help to think that the carrot (or other food stuff) is not really there, your stomach still gets hungry. You still have a metabolism to feed, even if the carrots etc.. are illusory.
The one seeing the rabbit-clouds is also, in their own way, just another rabbit-cloud as well.

Experiences such as hunger occur as real even if, ultimately, the component causes of those experiences have no intrinsic self-reality.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Dhammanando
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by Dhammanando »

Anders wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:08 am This is true supposing a finite number of outcomes, including nirvana.

You can't guarantee that if there are also an infinite number of outcomes besides Nirvana.
Why would it make any difference whether the possible outcomes besides Nirvana were finite or infinite?

Suppose the end-of-life outcomes numbered just *four*:

1. rebirth as a human.
2. rebirth as a solenodon.
3. rebirth as solenodon food.
4. skandha-parinirvāṇa.

Why mightn't a being simply go on forever performing karmas that are causes for becoming a human, a solenodon or solenodon food, but forever failing to do what's needed to bring about kleśa-parinirvāṇa and skandha-parinirvāṇa?
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august
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by august »

The moment you add "infinite" to the mix, everything becomes possible. By everything, I really mean every outcome you can or can not imagine... and then one more on top of that.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: nirvana mathematically not possible

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:57 am Why mightn't a being simply go on forever performing karmas that are causes for becoming a human, a solenodon or solenodon food, but forever failing to do what's needed to bring about kleśa-parinirvāṇa and skandha-parinirvāṇa?
Referring to an earlier reply, the difference between monkeys on typewriters eventually typing Shakespeare, and sentient beings eventually becoming Buddhas, is that the clear state of a Buddha is already the original true mind of sentient beings. It’s like a dirty window: When you wipe off the dirt, you find the perfectly clear window that was already always there. So, there is a slight advantage over monkeys with typewriters.

This may apply to the question asked here. Since samsara is simply the confused byproduct of ignorance and attachment, like dirt on a window, those are its causes. It has no other ‘reality’ than being a delusion.

All beings strive for contentment, to be free from suffering. Freedom from suffering can also be called perfect peace of mind. Perfect peace of mind can also be called nirvana.

The desire for perfect peace of mind and freedom from suffering is the single motivation for every action, good, bad, or otherwise by sentient beings.
In other words, beings are already headed in that direction. Eventually, methods which do not work will be exhausted. The methods (dharma) which do bring nirvana will be what remains, and brings will be liberated.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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