New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

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Anna156
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New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Anna156 »

Hi!
My name is Anna im am 25 and from the US. I just started practicing Buddhism and I have a lot of questions in how to do thing properly. To be upfront, I have a blunt and honest mentality there for I apologize in advance if I say anything out of context or inappropriate because i am new to this and just want information's along with others point of views where possible. i have read the parajikas and understand the precepts along with other prior knowledge from my temple. I currently live outside the temple and commute to it twice a week for service. i live at home with my cat. i make YouTube videos in my spare time as a source of time killer and building a a community. I cant monetize my channel at the moment. i am also looking for a IN person job to help have a easier budget to live off of. I do know that Buddhist monks/nuns are no allowed to handle money, but in my circumstances i need it to live. i am disabled with cerbal palsy although very minor, bipolar disorder ADHD ADD OCD Intermediate explosive disorder (having a short fuse that leads to quick anger) (this has been handled better after starting to transition to woman hood medically) GID (gender identity disorder aka a transgender person more on that in a bit) and take medications to stabilize my mood, thoughts and anger. I usually take my meds later in the night usually before i go to bed. if I took them in the morning its highly likely that I'll forget the dose and miss it or take it late causing relapse and "monkey mind" if you will.

Born an raised in Christian faith thats all I know and understood. i grew up blinding loving Jesus and not reading the bible that much. I meditated and prayed a lot growing up and believing heaven was a place that good people went to. During a lot of my childhood and most of my teen years. I had a lot of anger and aggression towards people animals plants and a negative look at the whole world in general. i also have wanted to be a women since i was young (maybe i was in a past life who knows i dont nor am i claiming that i know im saying its a possibility only the gods would know.) since then i changed a lot in 2017 i finished High School and got my diploma. In 2018 i started transitioning. i devolved a peaceful state of mind and lost track of jesus's love and teaching. Over the early summer of 2022 (june july august), I was mediating under a tree in my local park because i was conflicted with a question whether i was more of a masculine women or a feminine man and to have a clearer understanding of myself and my body, sprit and mind. what I didn't know was I was going to talk to someone I was not expecting. You see, My male name before i changed it was Scott. and he came to me in meditation and started to talk to me in a way that it felt like I was talking to a person that wasn't of this world anymore. Honestly he isn't me. He is me from 1997 to 2018. i dont use this name anymore nor, is it my legal name either as I updated my name and gender in 2020. 2 years after I started hormone replacement therapy. While in this meditative state I had a argument about something i dont remember if it was the image session or sometime after. I meditated a lot under this tree and was giving a lot of negativity from Scott. I haven't talked or got into that state since. i do skateboard almost daily and that used up my downtime. i meditate about 3 hours a day at max. some day i dont have the energy and that is ok. but i do meditate at least 15 mins daily. I study mantras and sutras for better understanding through the day as a way to learn what we are reciting in sermons.

in early to late September I went to my brothers house for vacation as I havn't been that in a year and his mother died earlier that year. So I went to stay with him for 2 weeks. I went from the 2nd to the 21st. When I got back. I wondered about that session again and started down the meditation journey that led me here today. that last week of September i started to looking deeper into meditation and Buddhism as a hole. on October 1st i set out on Buddhist faith but still clinging to christ. i started to talk to my Christians friends and my old pastor and that i cant do both and they arn't compatible and that are 2 different religions. I know that Christianity is a religion and Buddhism is a way of life. So i went on an another spiritual journey to pick which region fits my personal beliefs better. On oct 22 2022 I rescued my cat from the shelter and got her home. But, my meditation dwindled because i know have a 19 week old kitten and was trying to find that right way to meditate in gods favor but nothing fits just right so but late December. i went back to Buddhism and didn't look back again. on Jan 1st this year 2023. My cousin died of undiagnosed stage 4 colon cancer. I felt like all of our prayers was for not and I felt betrayed by god himself. This is the 5th year in a row I have lost someone close to me.

Ps these questions are coming from someone aka me that is trying to live a monastic life outside of the temple.
now that you know a bit of where i came from and a bit about me the questions i have are:

1) pets since im not in the temple can i keep my cat or should i take her back/find someone to take care of her. I belive in reincarnation. so its possible i could be a love one with out me knowing.

2) What is the policy for food after noon for my case?
I do know monks fast from noon to dawn the following day (i usually fast from noon-6am which is after my meditation. if i miss the noon and only have breakfast like on Sunday when i have sermons at 10 to 1130 but dont get home to after noon due to errands on Sundays. i eat after that for my lunch but that makes me feel guilty for no fasting that day but only having a bowl of cereal for 24 hours is rough.) i also try to spread out my meals through out the day like 6-7, 11-1p, 4-6p but only have 1 serving and no snacks. since i am skating and need to not hurt myself and have energy for later meditation sessions

3)what is the morals for transgender people like me. i yet have had the reassignment surgery but has a a ordecttimy (removal of the testies) and would masturbation be allowed even thou i cant emit sperms anymore (this is more of a cusiosity for me and knowage for the future if any other trans folks wanted to know. i do know masturbation is a "no no" due to the act of killing a reincarnated soul. however we are not permitted to have sex so would that even matter? (this is out of ingorance and mosunderstanding.)

4) as a monk would i be able to still talk to people men and women while in public. and as a no monastic person as i am now. Am I allowed to talk to women?

5)is music singing and dancing ok in the state im in. i personal look at chanting as a form on singing so i dont understand the point of this. Can i still listen to music and a non-monastic and monastic person. if i dont let it could my meditaition and mind.

6) i get we cant handle money either. how am i suppose to pay rent wile in non-monastic living?



Thanks so much for you time ik this was alot. please excuse me for in misjudgement or misunderstanding rules and practice.

if i have any other questions ill be back to this thread

Saadu
stoneinfocus
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by stoneinfocus »

Hi Anna,

It's great that you are interested in Buddhism! I would suggest connecting further with your temple and teachers and really get a good grasp on what Buddhism is all about. There is a lot to learn.

I would also ask your temple and teachers about your questions. Generally, as you are not actually a monk or a nun and new to Buddhism, it is likely best if you start out learning to live like a lay person, and if, after working with your temple for some time, ordination opens itself to you later on, then great. But generally, you want to learn to crawl and then walk before you try to run a marathon if you know what I mean. You have barely begun to crawl as a new Buddhist. You need to learn some basics first, and your temple and teachers will guide you best.

Best of luck to you!
Anna156
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Anna156 »

Thanks again. I was planning on talking to the hed monk tomorrow afternoon before our session. I was just looking for a outside opinion or a little guidance in the life of Buddha that I am now living. That's for you honesty and straight forward approach to my questions. I also don't know the full extent of monk vs lay other than what the internet has tod me as the internet has a large user base so getting a answer is quite hard on my own.

That's again for your time.
Saadu
jmlee369
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by jmlee369 »

Anna156 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:38 am Hi!
My name is Anna im am 25 and from the US. [...]
Hi Anna,

I hope you don't mind me cutting to the chase, but as you said you have picked up a lot from reading online and it seems that you have some misunderstandings about the monastic rules and lifestyle in general (e.g. masturbation isn't prohibited because of killing souls, it's because of acting out sexual desire which borders on violating celibacy).

The bottom line is that you should focus on developing a better understanding of Buddhism and approaching practice a lay person because you are disqualified from taking monastic ordination in this lifetime according to the Vinaya for several reasons. One is that you are not whole in body due to your surgery. The monastic sangha is a gender binary institution, even though there was awareness of non-binary gender identities in society at the time.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Bristollad »

jmlee369 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:44 am The bottom line is that you should focus on developing a better understanding of Buddhism and approaching practice a lay person because you are disqualified from taking monastic ordination in this lifetime according to the Vinaya for several reasons. One is that you are not whole in body due to your surgery.
Though I agree this is in accordance with the rules as written, I do personally know one nun who transitioned from male before her ordination. This was known to the teacher before he ordained her. This was with a quite traditional Tibetan monk. So, sometimes, personal circumstances and connections allow things that are not an "official" option.

I agree the best thing would be to develop a strong relationship with your local temple and the teachers there, establish a lay practice and then see what unfolds.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Shinjin »

Not sure if this pertains to your situation but pandakas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandaka) are barred from monastic life.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by KathyLauren »

The Buddha had nothing to say about transgender people. The closest he got to saying anything was in this passage from the Vinaya:
Now at that time the sexual features of a woman appeared on a certain monk. They told the Blessed One about this matter. [He said,] “Monks, I allow the same teacher, the same ordination, the same rainy seasons together with the nuns. I allow reinstatement among the nuns for those offenses that nuns share in common with monks. According to those offenses of monks that are not shared in common with nuns, there is no offense.

Now at that time, the sexual features of a man appeared on a certain nun. They told the Blessed One about this matter. [He said,] “Monks, I allow the same teacher, the same ordination, the same rainy seasons in relation to the monks. I allow reinstatement among the monks for those offenses that monks share in common with the nuns. According to those offences of nuns that not shared in common with monks, there is no offense” (Vin III.35).

https://sfonline.barnard.edu/changing-s ... iterature/
What exactly he meant by the "features of a woman" and "features of a man" is something for scholars to debate. But, on the face of it, it sounds like he was quite okay with those people ordaining. And that was all he had to say on the subject.

I don't know of any scholars who equate pandakas with transgender people. The consensus appears to be that pandakas are something else.

Of course, whether or not ordination is something that the OP should consider is a different question entirely.

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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Reading your post my advice would be to chill. Find a space to settle, take things easy and find a teacher (standard answer here :smile: ).

Ordination should be taken on the basis of renunciation. Then such issues as how many meals a day are not really that important. For now you are a lay person. Lay practitioners are half of the following. Try to embody that as much as you can for starters. Taking refuge and 5 lay precepts and keeping them are more than enough for starters. Then you might want to go further with 8 mahayana precepts.

But hey I am not you. :D So you do you! Eitherway I do not see much trouble with you being a transgender person. Good luck.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Anna156 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:38 am Hi!
My name is Anna im am 25 and from the US. [...]
I am really interested to know, from a trans perspective, with so much effort put into making adjustments (chemical, surgical) to the physical body, how does one coordinate that with the Buddhist concept of not really identifying with or being attached to the physical body at all? What I mean is, Buddhist teachings are that there is no ‘me’ that can be located in the body. Of course, everyone identifies to some extent with their physical form.
Has that been a conflict for you?
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by stoneinfocus »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:06 am
Anna156 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:38 am Hi!
My name is Anna im am 25 and from the US. [...]
I am really interested to know, from a trans perspective, with so much effort put into making adjustments (chemical, surgical) to the physical body, how does one coordinate that with the Buddhist concept of not really identifying with or being attached to the physical body at all? What I mean is, Buddhist teachings are that there is no ‘me’ that can be located in the body. Of course, everyone identifies to some extent with their physical form.
Has that been a conflict for you?
I can't speak for trans people. However, as a queer person who has heard many variations of this kind of thing ("Ugh you need to stop with the queer identity thing, Buddhists are supposed to not be attached to identity!1"), I would posit that in a lot of cases, cis-het people have just as much identification with their bodies and identities as queer and trans people do. However, they just take it for granted. It's the norm, and it's so ingrained that they don't even think about it. Only when they are confronted with something "different" do they start to question these things (sometimes with little to no self-awareness).

Queer people have to deal with both personal and societal confrontation about their identities that they didn't even seek out, often from a very young age. So while most people don't even really need to think about this stuff at all (and still sink deep into their notions of their selves in a comfortable societal norm), queer people are sort of forced to do so, whether it be because they have dysphoria, they are told they are sick, they are bullied, they notice they are different and don't know why, etc...Integrating their lives in both a personal and societal sense often takes more effort as they navigate these sorts of obstacles, and while they are figuring it out, they get accused of "focusing too much on their identities" when really, they just want to feel comfortable in their own skin and live their lives like everyone else does.

Not to say that this refers to anyone here or that this relates to your question at all, I think you asked her thoughts in a respectful way and coming from a place of genuine interest! Just sharing my experiences and thoughts with something similar, and I am curious to hear what Anna has to say as well.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:02 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:06 am
Anna156 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:38 am Hi!
My name is Anna im am 25 and from the US. [...]
I am really interested to know, from a trans perspective, with so much effort put into making adjustments (chemical, surgical) to the physical body, how does one coordinate that with the Buddhist concept of not really identifying with or being attached to the physical body at all? What I mean is, Buddhist teachings are that there is no ‘me’ that can be located in the body. Of course, everyone identifies to some extent with their physical form.
Has that been a conflict for you?
I can't speak for trans people. However, as a queer person who has heard many variations of this kind of thing ("Ugh you need to stop with the queer identity thing, Buddhists are supposed to not be attached to identity!1"), I would posit that in a lot of cases, cis-het people have just as much identification with their bodies and identities as queer and trans people do. However, they just take it for granted. It's the norm, and it's so ingrained that they don't even think about it. Only when they are confronted with something "different" do they start to question these things (sometimes with little to no self-awareness).
This is fair, and I think generally true. However, taking something for granted often means it’s something one has settled for oneself, provisionally at least. I can see that if one has not settled ones gender identity, it could conceivably be a roadblock to renunciation, practice, etc. maybe no more than other aspects of identity though. Obviously one cannot ordain as non-binary, etc.
Queer people have to deal with both personal and societal confrontation about their identities that they didn't even seek out, often from a very young age. So while most people don't even really need to think about this stuff at all (and still sink deep into their notions of their selves in a comfortable societal norm), queer people are sort of forced to do so, whether it be because they have dysphoria, they are told they are sick, they are bullied, they notice they are different and don't know why, etc...Integrating their lives in both a personal and societal sense often takes more effort as they navigate these sorts of obstacles, and while they are figuring it out, they get accused of "focusing too much on their identities" when really, they just want to feel comfortable in their own skin and live their lives like everyone else does.
Again totally in agreement, but having a conflict this central to ones identity changes the equation in some ways, I’d imagine, wrt to something like ordaining.

Anyway OP, It’d probably be good to slow down and study the Dharma a bit, shelving the idea of ordination until you know more.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by stoneinfocus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:59 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:02 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:06 am

I am really interested to know, from a trans perspective, with so much effort put into making adjustments (chemical, surgical) to the physical body, how does one coordinate that with the Buddhist concept of not really identifying with or being attached to the physical body at all? What I mean is, Buddhist teachings are that there is no ‘me’ that can be located in the body. Of course, everyone identifies to some extent with their physical form.
Has that been a conflict for you?
I can't speak for trans people. However, as a queer person who has heard many variations of this kind of thing ("Ugh you need to stop with the queer identity thing, Buddhists are supposed to not be attached to identity!1"), I would posit that in a lot of cases, cis-het people have just as much identification with their bodies and identities as queer and trans people do. However, they just take it for granted. It's the norm, and it's so ingrained that they don't even think about it. Only when they are confronted with something "different" do they start to question these things (sometimes with little to no self-awareness).
This is fair, and I think generally true. However, taking something for granted often means it’s something one has settled for oneself, provisionally at least. I can see that if one has not settled ones gender identity, it could conceivably be a roadblock to renunciation, practice, etc. maybe no more than other aspects of identity though. Obviously one cannot ordain as non-binary, etc.
Queer people have to deal with both personal and societal confrontation about their identities that they didn't even seek out, often from a very young age. So while most people don't even really need to think about this stuff at all (and still sink deep into their notions of their selves in a comfortable societal norm), queer people are sort of forced to do so, whether it be because they have dysphoria, they are told they are sick, they are bullied, they notice they are different and don't know why, etc...Integrating their lives in both a personal and societal sense often takes more effort as they navigate these sorts of obstacles, and while they are figuring it out, they get accused of "focusing too much on their identities" when really, they just want to feel comfortable in their own skin and live their lives like everyone else does.
Again totally in agreement, but having a conflict this central to ones identity changes the equation in some ways, I’d imagine, wrt to something like ordaining.

Anyway OP, It’d probably be good to slow down and study the Dharma a bit, shelving the idea of ordination until you know more.
Yes, in general it takes more time for queer people to figure themselves out in terms of sexuality, gender, identity; but, I would also posit that cis-het people are just as likely to have some figuring out to do of their own. If it's not something gender or sexuality related, it can be anything else (e.g. addiction, relationship issues, mental illness, not knowing who they are or what they want to do, career, family, hobbies, etc...). In short, everyone has their shit that they are trying to work through, everyone has their attachments and identifications, and everyone is just as deluded as everyone else in different ways.

Issues to renunciation and practice are not limited to gender and sexual identity, nor is gender and sexual identity somehow holding people back from Dharma practice more so than any other delusion a sentient being may have.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:35 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:59 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:02 am

I can't speak for trans people. However, as a queer person who has heard many variations of this kind of thing ("Ugh you need to stop with the queer identity thing, Buddhists are supposed to not be attached to identity!1"), I would posit that in a lot of cases, cis-het people have just as much identification with their bodies and identities as queer and trans people do. However, they just take it for granted. It's the norm, and it's so ingrained that they don't even think about it. Only when they are confronted with something "different" do they start to question these things (sometimes with little to no self-awareness).
This is fair, and I think generally true. However, taking something for granted often means it’s something one has settled for oneself, provisionally at least. I can see that if one has not settled ones gender identity, it could conceivably be a roadblock to renunciation, practice, etc. maybe no more than other aspects of identity though. Obviously one cannot ordain as non-binary, etc.
Queer people have to deal with both personal and societal confrontation about their identities that they didn't even seek out, often from a very young age. So while most people don't even really need to think about this stuff at all (and still sink deep into their notions of their selves in a comfortable societal norm), queer people are sort of forced to do so, whether it be because they have dysphoria, they are told they are sick, they are bullied, they notice they are different and don't know why, etc...Integrating their lives in both a personal and societal sense often takes more effort as they navigate these sorts of obstacles, and while they are figuring it out, they get accused of "focusing too much on their identities" when really, they just want to feel comfortable in their own skin and live their lives like everyone else does.
Again totally in agreement, but having a conflict this central to ones identity changes the equation in some ways, I’d imagine, wrt to something like ordaining.

Anyway OP, It’d probably be good to slow down and study the Dharma a bit, shelving the idea of ordination until you know more.
Yes, in general it takes more time for queer people to figure themselves out in terms of sexuality, gender, identity; but, I would also posit that cis-het people are just as likely to have some figuring out to do of their own. If it's not something gender or sexuality related, it can be anything else (e.g. addiction, relationship issues, mental illness, not knowing who they are or what they want to do, career, family, hobbies, etc...). In short, everyone has their shit that they are trying to work through, everyone has their attachments and identifications, and everyone is just as deluded as everyone else in different ways.

Issues to renunciation and practice are not limited to gender and sexual identity, nor is gender and sexual identity somehow holding people back from Dharma practice more so than any other delusion a sentient being may have.
Society places a premium on the importance of gender and sexual identity, and as we live in social systems and our internal lives are not separate from them, it unfortunately often makes sex and gender identity functionally a much stronger preoccupation than many other things.

I assume the more aware someone is of their social conditioning, the more someone has agency to move past that stuff and “make peace” with identity issues. In fact, that’s been my experience in counseling people as well.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by stoneinfocus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:58 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:35 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:59 am

This is fair, and I think generally true. However, taking something for granted often means it’s something one has settled for oneself, provisionally at least. I can see that if one has not settled ones gender identity, it could conceivably be a roadblock to renunciation, practice, etc. maybe no more than other aspects of identity though. Obviously one cannot ordain as non-binary, etc.


Again totally in agreement, but having a conflict this central to ones identity changes the equation in some ways, I’d imagine, wrt to something like ordaining.

Anyway OP, It’d probably be good to slow down and study the Dharma a bit, shelving the idea of ordination until you know more.
Yes, in general it takes more time for queer people to figure themselves out in terms of sexuality, gender, identity; but, I would also posit that cis-het people are just as likely to have some figuring out to do of their own. If it's not something gender or sexuality related, it can be anything else (e.g. addiction, relationship issues, mental illness, not knowing who they are or what they want to do, career, family, hobbies, etc...). In short, everyone has their shit that they are trying to work through, everyone has their attachments and identifications, and everyone is just as deluded as everyone else in different ways.

Issues to renunciation and practice are not limited to gender and sexual identity, nor is gender and sexual identity somehow holding people back from Dharma practice more so than any other delusion a sentient being may have.
Society places a premium on the importance of gender and sexual identity, and as we live in social systems and our internal lives are not separate from them, it unfortunately often makes sex and gender identity functionally a much stronger preoccupation than many other things.

I assume the more aware someone is of their social conditioning, the more someone has agency to move past this stuff. In fact, that’s been my experience in counseling people as well.
In some cases, certainly not all. Everyone is on their own trip and preoccupied with their own identities and delusions. Nobody is any less primed for Dharma or renunciation out of hand than anybody else strictly because of their sexuality or gender identity.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:58 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:35 am

Yes, in general it takes more time for queer people to figure themselves out in terms of sexuality, gender, identity; but, I would also posit that cis-het people are just as likely to have some figuring out to do of their own. If it's not something gender or sexuality related, it can be anything else (e.g. addiction, relationship issues, mental illness, not knowing who they are or what they want to do, career, family, hobbies, etc...). In short, everyone has their shit that they are trying to work through, everyone has their attachments and identifications, and everyone is just as deluded as everyone else in different ways.

Issues to renunciation and practice are not limited to gender and sexual identity, nor is gender and sexual identity somehow holding people back from Dharma practice more so than any other delusion a sentient being may have.
Society places a premium on the importance of gender and sexual identity, and as we live in social systems and our internal lives are not separate from them, it unfortunately often makes sex and gender identity functionally a much stronger preoccupation than many other things.

I assume the more aware someone is of their social conditioning, the more someone has agency to move past this stuff. In fact, that’s been my experience in counseling people as well.
In some cases, certainly not all. Everyone is on their own trip and preoccupied with their own identities and delusions. Nobody is any less primed for Dharma or renunciation out of hand than anybody else strictly because of their sexuality or gender identity.
I’d argue that pre occupation with sexual identity or gender is likely to be a larger block to Dharma than say, choosing hobbies or something. I suspect it has a non-trivial effect as far as identity goes, fair or not.

That said, there are lots of things in life that get in the way of Dharma practice as much or more, identifying with a job for example.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by PeterC »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:58 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:35 am

Yes, in general it takes more time for queer people to figure themselves out in terms of sexuality, gender, identity; but, I would also posit that cis-het people are just as likely to have some figuring out to do of their own. If it's not something gender or sexuality related, it can be anything else (e.g. addiction, relationship issues, mental illness, not knowing who they are or what they want to do, career, family, hobbies, etc...). In short, everyone has their shit that they are trying to work through, everyone has their attachments and identifications, and everyone is just as deluded as everyone else in different ways.

Issues to renunciation and practice are not limited to gender and sexual identity, nor is gender and sexual identity somehow holding people back from Dharma practice more so than any other delusion a sentient being may have.
Society places a premium on the importance of gender and sexual identity, and as we live in social systems and our internal lives are not separate from them, it unfortunately often makes sex and gender identity functionally a much stronger preoccupation than many other things.

I assume the more aware someone is of their social conditioning, the more someone has agency to move past this stuff. In fact, that’s been my experience in counseling people as well.
In some cases, certainly not all. Everyone is on their own trip and preoccupied with their own identities and delusions. Nobody is any less primed for Dharma or renunciation out of hand than anybody else strictly because of their sexuality or gender identity.
It's not so much a question of whether someone is ready or not. The issue is whether someone can ordain within a specific vinaya. The Buddha was pretty clear that staying at home at practicing was perfectly sufficient and that was his advice to the first women requesting ordination, before he explained the garudhammas etc. The issue is that the rules he created, that became the vinayas - and they were created in a very different society a few thousand years ago - which are what the monastic community has to work with now. They do allow for the rules to be changed around the edges by consensus of the sangha, but there is no provision for individual re-interpretation by scholars or individual preceptors. So if you want to ordain, you either do it within one of the sets of vinaya that are still alive, or you have to bring back the Buddha and get a new set of rules from him/her.

Ordaining and maintaining vows is very meritorious, but it is also unnecessary. And in today's society, for western practitioners, it is really, really hard to live as an ordained monk/nun. It's something very hard to recommend to the vast majority of people.
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:22 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:58 am

Society places a premium on the importance of gender and sexual identity, and as we live in social systems and our internal lives are not separate from them, it unfortunately often makes sex and gender identity functionally a much stronger preoccupation than many other things.

I assume the more aware someone is of their social conditioning, the more someone has agency to move past this stuff. In fact, that’s been my experience in counseling people as well.
In some cases, certainly not all. Everyone is on their own trip and preoccupied with their own identities and delusions. Nobody is any less primed for Dharma or renunciation out of hand than anybody else strictly because of their sexuality or gender identity.
It's not so much a question of whether someone is ready or not. The issue is whether someone can ordain within a specific vinaya. The Buddha was pretty clear that staying at home at practicing was perfectly sufficient and that was his advice to the first women requesting ordination, before he explained the garudhammas etc. The issue is that the rules he created, that became the vinayas - and they were created in a very different society a few thousand years ago - which are what the monastic community has to work with now. They do allow for the rules to be changed around the edges by consensus of the sangha, but there is no provision for individual re-interpretation by scholars or individual preceptors. So if you want to ordain, you either do it within one of the sets of vinaya that are still alive, or you have to bring back the Buddha and get a new set of rules from him/her.

Ordaining and maintaining vows is very meritorious, but it is also unnecessary. And in today's society, for western practitioners, it is really, really hard to live as an ordained monk/nun. It's something very hard to recommend to the vast majority of people.
Yeah and honestly I have always questioned whether it is even worth a person ordaining if they don’t spend a significant amount of time in practice already.

If they don’t or won’t, what’s the point really, just a more austere lifestyle?
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by stoneinfocus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:21 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:58 am

Society places a premium on the importance of gender and sexual identity, and as we live in social systems and our internal lives are not separate from them, it unfortunately often makes sex and gender identity functionally a much stronger preoccupation than many other things.

I assume the more aware someone is of their social conditioning, the more someone has agency to move past this stuff. In fact, that’s been my experience in counseling people as well.
In some cases, certainly not all. Everyone is on their own trip and preoccupied with their own identities and delusions. Nobody is any less primed for Dharma or renunciation out of hand than anybody else strictly because of their sexuality or gender identity.
I’d argue that pre occupation with sexual identity or gender is likely to be a larger block to Dharma than say, choosing hobbies or something. I suspect it has a non-trivial effect as far as identity goes, fair or not.

That said, there are lots of things in life that get in the way of Dharma practice as much or more, identifying with a job for example.
I mean, plenty of cis-het people have addictions, identity crises, obsessions, trauma, ptsd, bad relationships, etc...Sexuality and gender identity is one possible thing out of a sea of obstacles anybody is subject to. And personally, as a gay person, being gay has been the least of my issues relating to Dharma practice. Not that my experience is universal, obviously.

I just find it annoying when people single out queerness as being a unique obstacle when the heroin addict, obsessive gambler, or spouse-beater next door probably has more obstacles to renunciation anyway. Queer or not, everyone deals with the delusion of "I-making".
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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:34 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:21 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:04 am

In some cases, certainly not all. Everyone is on their own trip and preoccupied with their own identities and delusions. Nobody is any less primed for Dharma or renunciation out of hand than anybody else strictly because of their sexuality or gender identity.
I’d argue that pre occupation with sexual identity or gender is likely to be a larger block to Dharma than say, choosing hobbies or something. I suspect it has a non-trivial effect as far as identity goes, fair or not.

That said, there are lots of things in life that get in the way of Dharma practice as much or more, identifying with a job for example.
I mean, plenty of cis-het people have addictions, identity crises, obsessions, trauma, ptsd, bad relationships, etc...Sexuality and gender identity is one possible thing out of a sea of obstacles anybody is subject to. And personally, as a gay person, being gay has been the least of my issues relating to Dharma practice. Not that my experience is universal, obviously.
Not sure how old you are, but my point is, if you were openly gay 20 or 30 years ago, it might have been a bigger issue for you (I know it was for gay people I knew then), because there was more open homophobia generally, and mainstream US society was more fixated on the notion that gay people were fundamentally other.

As individuals, that is not something one can just think or reason their way out of, we are conditioned by how society responds to us and vice versa. I’d argue that we are in a very transitional place right now with gender identity, I don’t think anyone knows how things will shake out, but given the general state of politics i particular wrt to trans and gender identity issues…it’s pretty hard for me to compare it to the other things you mention in anything but a general sense.
I just find it annoying when people single out queerness as being a unique obstacle when the heroin addict, obsessive gambler, or spouse-beater next door probably has more obstacles to renunciation anyway. Queer or not, everyone deals with the delusion of "I-making".
I mean, they are all unique obstacles in a sense, right? I would put addiction above any of them. Addiction is tanha cranked up to higher settings.

To approach it a different way, gender identity and in particular the notion of gender fluidity is, in my limited experience a subject of debate even -within-the LGBT+ community itself right now, at least outside maintenance of a united front for fighting prejudice, etc., not everyone in that community shares a common view on these things. On top of this there is a concerted, very public and pervasive right wing culture war effort to vilify trans people.

It would be surprising if it were -not- a unique obstacle for people in this place and time. So I’m trying to make a value-neutral observation here, not saying “it’s the worst obstacle” or something, I’m saying that it would surprise if it were not a difficult time for many trans people socially right now, and that this probably indeed does act as an obstacle to a renunciate approach, similar to other things you mention, but unique in its own way given context.

Identifying obstacles wrt to practicing the vehicle of renunciation aren’t based on value judgements, they are simply based on how much something occupies your time and energy. For most of us living householder lives, we have a whole stack of stuff in the way, in terms of renunciation. I could never practice with that approach.

This why you can pick up any instructional text in this vein and all the recommendations are having few activities, moving less, not engaging in worldly debates, etc. It’s really not about whether or not it’s equitable, just whether or not it is occupying enough space to stand in the way of renunciation. That includes stuff like trauma too, which might seem unfair, but it is not a question of fairness, just whether or not a particular approach makes sense.

It’s impossible to answer a question like that for anyone else, but I do think it’s worth being frank about how that approach works given the OPs questions.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: New potential buddist monk questions while living outside the temple

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:04 am In some cases, certainly not all. Everyone is on their own trip and preoccupied with their own identities and delusions. Nobody is any less primed for Dharma or renunciation out of hand than anybody else strictly because of their sexuality or gender identity.
:good:

I fully support this. Being queer does not necessarily make one more preoccupied with their gender or sexuality. I came out shortly after I discovered dharma and I am as sex obsessed, drunk and borderline functional as other dharma friends I have met.

It just might be a matter of focus. If we focus on one thing such as a diet for example, we can get easily lost in the complications of minerals, calories, etc. But if you simply just say "I preffer veggies" then you eat that. No need to be obsessed.

I personally sometimes forget that being gay is not "normal" or is less common or even that I am gay. And trust me the joy of realising it again is actually worth the potential violent death awaiting me.

All I want to say is that is a matter of self love and self acceptance. And every person can have that.

In the end my sexual identity is not different from my identity as a working class czech from a region so shitty that its pretty.
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