A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

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Leo Rivers
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A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Leo Rivers »

I have logged about 5, now, just adding the Ajitasena-vyakarana-nirdesa sutra.

Anyone have a list or research on the Proto-mahayana Sutras as a topic?
or, opinions......... :anjali:
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Aemilius
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Aemilius »

That would be a list of sutras in which the three paths of sravaka, pratyeka-buddha and bodhisattva/buddha are mentioned or implied. And all the sutras in which the unique qualities of a buddha are taught, i.e. sutras which make it clear that the buddha-state is beyond that of sravakas and pratyeka-buddhas. According to Peter Della Santina such sutras do exist, or they have existed, in the Tripitakas of the Sautrantikas, Sarvastivadins/Vaibhashikas and Mahasamghikas in India. But not so much in the Pali tipitaka, anymore.
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Arguably, the Ekottara Agama is proto mahayana

Which Charles Patton has just started: https://blog.dharmapearls.net/2023/01/0 ... -released/
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... 01_01.html

May I ask what other sutras you have as "proto mahayana?"
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Leo Rivers
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Leo Rivers »

One of the very best [most useful] introductions to the idea of what I think of as "bridge sūtras' or sūtras on the developmental journey between 'Sravaka' suttas and 'Mahayana' sūtras is the Conclusion to "A Few Good Men" by the amazing Prof. Jan Nattier, [NATTIER, Jan. 2005. A Few Good Men: The Bodhisattva Path According to the Inquiry of Ugra (Ugrapariprcchā). New edition. Univ of Hawaii Pr.] which begins on page 190. And she lists a half dozen Sūtras with her reasoning.:applause:

By the way,... I may have been unskillful in putting this thread in Sūtra Studies rather than Academic Discussion because this approach to examining a distinction like this is indeed secular and not an argument as to the perspectives of anyone's received doctrine on the matter. :namaste:


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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

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Dharma is two-fold: 1. Dharma of precepts and 2. Dharma of realization. Of these the latter is more important. For the understanding of Buddhist history, it is useful to find out the nature of the oral traditions, that still exist in the world. When the oral traditions have been written down, the real masters are still those who know the precepts by heart. Because of this spiritual authority of holding in memory and realization, the sutras were not written down for many hundreds of years.

This means, for example, that 500 years of oral tradition would be something like 20 generations of practitioners of Dharma! This being the case, we must not think that Mahayana, or some other tradition of Dharma, was born at the time when a sutra text was written down, or "composed" like some ancient Indian "Shakespeare" composes texts, presumably ??

In a real oral tradition those who have the teachings in the heart and memory, will not regard the people who have in their homes written books, to be similar to the holders of oral tradition. This is ofcourse difficult to know exactly, but the reality must be something like this. There are studies (indeed! written books) about the Australian and African oral traditions, that give you some feeling or impression what the oral systems are like.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:23 pm ... the Australian and African oral traditions, that give you some feeling or impression what the oral systems are like.
Here's one that will make you :jawdrop:

https://www.science.org/content/article ... -ever-told

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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Timeless Time »

Is there one definitive mayahana text?
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Leo Rivers »

It has been apparant for some decades that what we call Mahayana was an era in which new sutras emerged which featured a range of new ideas... each a different 'take' on what Buddhism could be. So there were multiple Mahayanas so to speak. Then decades passed in which new sutras emerged which embraced each a unique selelection out of those new ideas.

The Bodhisattva ideal and the emptiness teachings in time became the center of gravity in new Mahayana texts.

And then you began to see new monestaries that labled themselves 'Mahayana'.... and Buddhists became perminantly divided into Sravaka and Bodhisattva traditions.

For a few centuries all Mahayana text devotees lived in traditional sanghas.

And in Gandhara we also saw meditation and path manuels teaching traditional Buddhism but taught that some folks were wecome to fork off onto a Mahayana path if they'd like.

Kumarajiva's Sitting Meditatiin is a famous example of a pre schism text.
The Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation
$35.00
This meditation manual was compiled in China in the 4th century C.E. by Kumārajīva, a noted translator of the time, and even today is seen as a clear and well-organized presentation of both Theravada and Mahayanist foundations of meditation. Complete in one volume
Download PDF
https://bdkamerica.org/download/1897
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Aemilius »

Leo Rivers wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:08 am It has been apparant for some decades that what we call Mahayana was an era in which new sutras emerged which featured a range of new ideas... each a different 'take' on what Buddhism could be. So there were multiple Mahayanas so to speak. Then decades passed in which new sutras emerged which embraced each a unique selelection out of those new ideas.

The Bodhisattva ideal and the emptiness teachings in time became the center of gravity in new Mahayana texts.

And then you began to see new monestaries that labled themselves 'Mahayana'.... and Buddhists became perminantly divided into Sravaka and Bodhisattva traditions.

For a few centuries all Mahayana text devotees lived in traditional sanghas.

And in Gandhara we also saw meditation and path manuels teaching traditional Buddhism but taught that some folks were wecome to fork off onto a Mahayana path if they'd like.

Kumarajiva's Sitting Meditatiin is a famous example of a pre schism text.
The Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation
$35.00
This meditation manual was compiled in China in the 4th century C.E. by Kumārajīva, a noted translator of the time, and even today is seen as a clear and well-organized presentation of both Theravada and Mahayanist foundations of meditation. Complete in one volume
Download PDF
https://bdkamerica.org/download/1897
The development of Dharma has most likely been somewhat different. Mahayana existed from the beginning and it was taught only to the advanced or very advanced disciples. There are some traces of this. For example, in the old edition of Blue Annals (of Gö Lotsawa Shonnu Pel / George Roerich) the author says that Nagarjuna started to teach Mahayana in public, i.e. to everyone listening. This implies that it was an inner, esoteric and oral teaching before Nagarjuna. For some reason this has been edited out from the new and much truncated edition of Blue Annals.

We can't find out the real development of Dharma by only looking at the written materials, when the oral culture and oral method still existed and was highly appreciated.

Are there no other methods for the studying of Buddhist history?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:55 am ... We can't find out the real development of Dharma by only looking at the written materials, when the oral culture and oral method still existed and was highly appreciated.
Granted.
Are there no other methods for the studying of Buddhist history?
None at all.
:thinking:
History exists only through texts, documents, artefacts, etc - physical traces of words and events.
The activity of 'doing history' is precisely the activity of thinking about those traces and writing down one's conclusions, or examining the histories that other historians have written down and writing something in support or rebuttal.
Even 'oral history', so called, is writing-centred. People are encouraged to tell their stories so that the historian can write them down and publish them and write about them ... from that point onwards. The words never get back into the oral world as history, even if they return as art or performance or ritual.

Study of the "real development of Dharma" is not necessarily the study of "Buddhist history" but the study of "Buddhist history" does necessarily focus on written materials.

:namaste:
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Re: A Review or List of Proto-mahayana Sutras?

Post by Kai lord »

Leo Rivers wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:05 pm I have logged about 5, now, just adding the Ajitasena-vyakarana-nirdesa sutra.

Anyone have a list or research on the Proto-mahayana Sutras as a topic?
or, opinions......... :anjali:
Ekavyāvahārika, Prajñaptivādins and Lokottaravāda were among early nikaya schools and they were widely regarded as proto Mahayana sects.

Some of their texts like Kaccānagotta Sutta and Mahāvastu, were dated back to 200 BC at least and they contained Mahayana themes like idea of an universal/transcendental Buddha, twofold emptiness of self and phenomenon, etc.

Ekavyāvahārika even taught an early form of Buddha nature.
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another "Bridge" text. ... that hints at tantra?

Post by Leo Rivers »

―An English Translation of the Dharmatrāta-Dhyāna-Sūtra (達摩多羅禪經 T15, no.618) ------ With Annotation and a Critical Introduction‖ Submitted by Chan Yiu Wing


I also compare the methods of meditation expounded in this sūtra [the Dharmatrāta-Dhyāna-Sūtra ] with those of the AKB, arriving at the conclusion that they are almost identical (Part XI, Introduction). In addition, the meditation system commonly shared by the Hīnayāna and the Mahāyāna is analysed with a view to demonstrating the fact that whilst the techniques are virtually the same, the interpretation, on the other hand, could be different. In the course of my research, I have also compiled a Chinese-Sanskrit-English glossary, juxtaposing the ancient Chinese terms with Sanskrit and modern English for the benefit of furture researchers. This sūtra essentially preserves the ancient Sarvāstivādin meditation teachniques. But it importantly incorporates Mahāyānistic-Tantric elements, such as the maṇḍala and visualization. This is another important aspect of my text discussed in the introduction of my thesis. As a result, it came to exert a great impact on the subsequent teaching and practice of Chinese Buddhism, particularly those of Buddhist meditation.
https://www.amazon.com/English-Translat ... 542&sr=8-1
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