Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
To calculate that all 24 masters lived for 80 years (at that time?) and you come to 1920 years is only possible if the master give his teachings in his year of death to his student in his year of birth.
Lost In Transmission
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:34 pmYour list of names is quite late In its composition.
Like Taoists, bonpos will always make these claims trying to prove their tradition is older, but when examined, there were many buddhas who lived prior to Shenrab, who also taught ati yoga, Kashyapa Buddha being one of them.
Basically Bönpos (not to speak for all Bönpos of course) see Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche as the actual Uttamanirmanakaya; and say that the Buddha Shakyamuni—although a totally Enlightened being himself—was commissioned by Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche to appear in India and play the role of a Uttamanirmanakaya, as to spread Dharma in India. If I follow this correctly:
https://yungdrungbon.co.uk/2022/05/03/t ... -rinpoche/
In any case, even if the Buddha Shakyamuni was only pretending be the Uttamanirmanakaya of this eon, it doesn't take away from him being a fully Enlightened Buddha and Dzogchen Master; nor does it take away from there having been Buddhas before Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche who taught Dzogchen.
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Well the point of Bön is here cearly expressed and the other side, is the other conviction.Archie2009 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:55 pm Being a Bönpo seems to go hand in hand with a high level of credulity with regard to historical claims.
Guess that ZZNG precedes Buddhism and Nyingma Dzogchen, IF we can believe the ZZNG Dzogchen lineage.
Personal, i am not so convinced that Garab Dorje was the first "human" Dzogchen Master on this planet, but sure that can be doubt.
With or without Garab Dorje / Prahe Vajra, ZZNG Dzogchen is a complete cycle of Dzogchen teaching.
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Well i never was good in calculating at school, but 24 times 80 = 1920.
Taphiritsa lived around 800 .
+800 - 1920 = approx. 1100 or 1000 b.chr . The time of the "first" Dzogchen teaching from Sangwa Dupa to the first ZZ Master.
What was here wrong calculated ?
Garab Dorje was born after the birth of the " Indian " Buddha Shakyamuni.
Also we know in Bön, that the Buddha Shakyamuni, got a message in the Bön lineage to give some teachings in India.
Indeed he was already a Buddha before he entered this planet.
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
I feel this is where these discussions always seem to get lost. Historical disputes are interesting, and I guess it is worthwhile to gain an understanding of a particular lineage. But in these cases I think it is better to agree to disagree on some key points.
I recall in an old thread (though I can't recall which one), that if one identifies with a particular lineage whether it be Bon or Nyingma in these cases then this of course if of great importance to the individual practitioner.
I certainly have not studied the history of either side thuroughly, so for that I will defer to those who have.
However, if one is a Dzogchen practitioner first and foremost, is it not just background and scenery? I have received teachings from both lineages, and for me the real point is that both lineages teach the main essence of Dzogchen although there may be differences in systems, methods or presentation. Beyond all of that lies the real essence of Dzogchen from both lineages and I for one feel very fortunate that we have these teachings still alive in this world.
I recall in an old thread (though I can't recall which one), that if one identifies with a particular lineage whether it be Bon or Nyingma in these cases then this of course if of great importance to the individual practitioner.
I certainly have not studied the history of either side thuroughly, so for that I will defer to those who have.
However, if one is a Dzogchen practitioner first and foremost, is it not just background and scenery? I have received teachings from both lineages, and for me the real point is that both lineages teach the main essence of Dzogchen although there may be differences in systems, methods or presentation. Beyond all of that lies the real essence of Dzogchen from both lineages and I for one feel very fortunate that we have these teachings still alive in this world.
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
This is pretty much my take as well, but without fail some people are drawn to sectarianism for their own karmic reasons, some of which may be “valid” as far as our samsaric reasoning can be valid, we all have our stuff to work out. I don’t get it personally though, and it reminds me of childhood conversations about which superhero would win a theoretical battle.Terma wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:35 pm
However, if one is a Dzogchen practitioner first and foremost, is it not just background and scenery? I have received teachings from both lineages, and for me the real point is that both lineages teach the main essence of Dzogchen although there may be differences in systems, methods or presentation. Beyond all of that lies the real essence of Dzogchen from both lineages and I for one feel very fortunate that we have these teachings still alive in this world.
The thing is that we have to specify whether we are talking historical narrative or mythic/hagiography etc…but the general tendency is to switch between the two as needed in order to win the argument. A “debate” based on that kind of rhetorical sleight of hand has no stopping point, because people just endlessly switch back and forth when they are presented with contrary information.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Yes. If one decides to simply accept the traditional views of either Nyingmapa or Bonpo lineages, it is pointless to get into historical arguments. If one wants to get into historical arguments with people who have different ideas, one must thoroughly study the matter from an unbiased perspective, and not just repeat from "authoritative" sources.
But practice should be foremost, rather than disputation from a poorly-educated standpoint, which is no more than rival roosters crowing on different fence posts.
But practice should be foremost, rather than disputation from a poorly-educated standpoint, which is no more than rival roosters crowing on different fence posts.
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
1920 seems to be wrong for me, because a lineage is transmitted from an adult to adult.Maybe a 40 year old lama teaches an 20 year old student.James Sealy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:11 pmWell i never was good in calculating at school, but 24 times 80 = 1920.lelopa35 wrote:Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:34 pm To calculate that all 24 masters lived for 80 years (at that time?) and you come to 1920 years is only possible if the master give his teachings in his year of death to his student in his year of birth.
Taphiritsa lived around 800 .
+800 - 1920 = approx. 1100 or 1000 b.chr . The time of the "first" Dzogchen teaching from Sangwa Dupa to the first ZZ Master.
What was here wrong calculated ?
Garab Dorje was born after the birth of the " Indian " Buddha Shakyamuni.
Also we know in Bön, that the Buddha Shakyamuni, got a message in the Bön lineage to give some teachings in India.
Indeed he was already a Buddha before he entered this planet.
Not an 80 years old teacher teaches a baby.
1920 years is from birth to death when all 24 siddhas were 80 years old.
Garab Dorje was the first buddhist Dzogchen master.... I do not know if he was the first human being teaching Dzogchen.
But yes, if we look where Zhangzhung was and where buddhism spread at the time ZhZh. was existent,
it seems impossible that Dharma didn't influence Zhangzhungpas one way or another...
"Bon came from the west" - yes, what countries were in the west of ZhZh.? Tusha, Oddiyana f.e. and the Zhangzhungpas didn't noticed that?
They didn't trading with neighbour countries?
Maybe the Dharma influenced the land of snow earlier than Padmasambhava - but how much?
History is written by the conquerors. Who knows which books get lost, or were burnt by the buddhist kings?
ChNN said something like "Maybe Bon had Dzogchen (short nyengyü) before Garab Dorje but there is no evidence that buddhists took it from bon".
For me it is important that Dzogchen teachings work - regardless of who teached it first.
Who knows if Garab Dorje was a nephew of Zhangzhung Garab?
Who knows if Garab Dorje learnt Dzogchen from his grandma, who learnt it from Laotse the 4th who was the cousin of Padmasambhava and
then gave it to the sister of Shri Singha's friend
Lost In Transmission
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
The fact is that earliest literary mention of Shenrab we have is a Bon ritual text, where he appears among other ritualists.tingdzin wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:12 pm Yes. If one decides to simply accept the traditional views of either Nyingmapa or Bonpo lineages, it is pointless to get into historical arguments. If one wants to get into historical arguments with people who have different ideas, one must thoroughly study the matter from an unbiased perspective, and not just repeat from "authoritative" sources.
Other than that, the first bio of him, the mdo ‘dus, was revealed by Shenchen Luga in the early 11th century. The other two bios, zer mig and gzi brjid, are much later termas. While they certainly frame a narrative of a prehistorical, mythological Shenrab, the idea that these tell the story of a actual historical person is absurd, with no more credibility than the exaggerated narratives concerning Garab Dorje, Manjushrimitra, Shri Simha, and Vimalamitra. The difference however, is that we have firm historical evidence for three of these four persons.
Of course we have no evidence for the Buddhas prior to Shakyamuni other than mentions of them in the Pali Canon, etc., datable, as we know to around 100 BCE. So, while I am happy to concede that historical evidence apparently has no impact on tendencies of Bonpos to make ahistorical claims, just as we do, when it comes to history, we need to rely on empirical evidence, and that is entirely lacking for most Bon historical claims, unlike Buddhist claims.
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Ehem.. (clears throat).
Once again, this phenomena was pointed out by Aristotle 2.5 millennia ago.Virgo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:54 pm James is only convinced by what he thinks is the biggest, holiest, most impressive, authority. That is why he is impressed by these things, and why he is impressed by his Guru, who is the head of Bon. This kind of discussion (the kind we have all been having with him) does not work for him. What he needs to do is hear these things from the mouth of the highest authority in his mind, and only then will he be convinced by this. And I hope he does that. Perhaps James should request some teachings? In his mind, he compares your words to what he perceives as the most magnificent authority, and if they don't appear to line up in his mind then you are by default wrong, because you do not have such authority and therefore must be wrong. This is why is also puts so much weight in the "deeper levels", and long histories, etc.
James may you find all that you need in this holy Dharma...
Virgo
People would do well to structure their responses in light of this, rather than endlessly waste their time.
Virgo
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Dzogchen is a tibetan thing.
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
I think a problem with these sort of discussions is that Tibetans and westerners mean different things by historicity.
We in the west try to fit their meaning into ours.
We in the west try to fit their meaning into ours.
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Doing so would be entirely natural - we're Westerners, right? - but I think it's even more common for us not to notice that there's a difference between our meaning of 'historical truth' and theirs; and then, of course, we don't even try.
Kim
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Bon's historical narrative is equally as valid as other famous legendary narratives like the Hindi's version of their Chakravartins conquering and unifying the world (including Tibet)/the Abrahamic accounts of how all single humans today descended from the twelve tribes/ Chinese tales of how all birds and mammals today originated from the dragon(s).
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Past Buddhas.......
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Game over. You win.
Oh I can't beat that.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
What do you think is the relationship between the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud and the 17 Tantras? You mentioned in your intro to the Blazing Lamp Tantra that Longchenpa likely received the Six Lamps and that he incorporated it into his writings for example. I am wondering whether the 17 Tantras were derived from the ZZNG, or vice versa, or they both developed in tandem as a result of a contemporary revolution of ideas in the Tibetan yogic community at that time.
Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
I didn’t say it was a fact, I said it was a possibility. There is an snyan brgyud in Man ngag sde which also uses a scheme of six lamps, and has similar terminology. Then there is the fact that the tantras this snyan brgyud are related to, such as the thig le kun gsal, describe the smooth white nadi, and so on., terminology absent in the 17. The snyan brgyud lineage splits from the 17 tantra lineage with Chetsun, who gave the snyan brgyud to Shongpa Repa, while he passed the 17 on to Chegom Nagpo. These two lineages were reunited in Kumaraja, who passed them onto Longchenpa, who systematized them in the Lama Yangtik and the Zabmo Yangtik. My present belief is that the six lamps system was borrowed into ZZNG after Chetsun.Passing By wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:04 pmWhat do you think is the relationship between the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud and the 17 Tantras? You mentioned in your intro to the Blazing Lamp Tantra that Longchenpa likely received the Six Lamps and that he incorporated it into his writings for example. I am wondering whether the 17 Tantras were derived from the ZZNG, or vice versa, or they both developed in tandem as a result of a contemporary revolution of ideas in the Tibetan yogic community at that time.
Also ZZNG uses once the Indian term, brighatu, which is found in the 17 several times.
Dating dzogchen adeherents between the 9th and 11th century is a chore, since dzogchen was suppressed by decrees of such people as Yeshe ‘od, etc.