Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Passing By
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:21 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:52 am

The Bonpo Dzogchen tradition demonstrably depends on the Buddhist tradition. That said, Bon Dzogchen has its own tantras, traditions, and so on, and rightfully deserves to be considered an independent tradition.
What do you think is the relationship between the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud and the 17 Tantras? You mentioned in your intro to the Blazing Lamp Tantra that Longchenpa likely received the Six Lamps and that he incorporated it into his writings for example. I am wondering whether the 17 Tantras were derived from the ZZNG, or vice versa, or they both developed in tandem as a result of a contemporary revolution of ideas in the Tibetan yogic community at that time.
I didn’t say it was a fact, I said it was a possibility. There is an snyan brgyud in Man ngag sde which also uses a scheme of six lamps, and has similar terminology. Then there is the fact that the tantras this snyan brgyud are related to, such as the thig le kun gsal, describe the smooth white nadi, and so on., terminology absent in the 17. The snyan brgyud lineage splits from the 17 tantra lineage with Chetsun, who gave the snyan brgyud to Shongpa Repa, while he passed the 17 on to Chegom Nagpo. These two lineages were reunited in Kumaraja, who passed them onto Longchenpa, who systematized them in the Lama Yangtik and the Zabmo Yangtik. My present belief is that the six lamps system was borrowed into ZZNG after Chetsun.

Also ZZNG uses once the Indian term, brighatu, which is found in the 17 several times.

Dating dzogchen adeherents between the 9th and 11th century is a chore, since dzogchen was suppressed by decrees of such people as Yeshe ‘od, etc.
Interesting, thanks.
Kai lord
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Kai lord »

Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:52 am
Nalanda wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:30 am Do they share the same Scriptures?

Are the teachings similar/same?
The Bonpo Dzogchen tradition demonstrably depends on the Buddhist tradition. That said, Bon Dzogchen has its own tantras, traditions, and so on, and rightfully deserves to be considered an independent tradition.
What do you think is the relationship between the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud and the 17 Tantras? You mentioned in your intro to the Blazing Lamp Tantra that Longchenpa likely received the Six Lamps and that he incorporated it into his writings for example. I am wondering whether the 17 Tantras were derived from the ZZNG, or vice versa, or they both developed in tandem as a result of a contemporary revolution of ideas in the Tibetan yogic community at that time.
Guess who hid the Bon termas?

From the Golden Spoon text by the Bon Tertön Yungdrung Lingpa:
Vairotsana was sitting in the Tiger's Nest in Bhutan.
When he was practising in the cave there one night, the cave became filled with light, the earth trembled and emitted sounds like a dragon roaring. Vairotsana looked in front of him and in a rainbow circle he saw Drenpa Namkha with his 2 sons; they appeared directly to him

Drenpa Namkha was white in colour and decorated with the 6 bone ornaments.
In his right hand he was holding up a swastika which was spinning by his head.
In his left hand he was holding a skull cup filled with blood.
Under his arm he was holding a trident decorated with semiprecious and precious stones as well as with various silk drapes. He was in a dancing posture, and he was moving.

His son, Tsewang Rigdzin, was a darkish white colour.
All his ornaments and decorations were perfect and Vairotsana saw him clearly. He felt devotion to him at that time. This teaching was written in gold and kept inside a gold reliquary box.

Drenpa Narnkha touched Vairotsana's forehead, neck and chest with it and gave him the 4 empowerments.
He gave him the 3 important points of teaching and also advice.

He said:
'Ho!
Boy of awareness, spiritual son! Do it be deluded! Listen to me!
I am Garab Dorje,
I am Drenpa Namkha
I am Lhagod Thoglebar,
I am Namkha Yungdrung,
I am also Drugse
Chemchog Kagying.
I show a Bönku form.
To whoever is devoted to me, I will appear as Sambhogakaya,
Impure beings will see me as Nirmanakaya.
I am the King of the Quintessence of the Three Kayas.
I am also the Free Life, Lachen Drenpa, the great lama of Namkha.

This is the essence of the Ultimate Vehicle of Bon.
This is the drops of nectar from the golden spoon.
Practise and then hide this as a treasure.'
And then he gave the teachings to Vairotsana. Vairotsana hid it in the Tiger's Nest.
:tongue: :tongue:
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Passing By
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Passing By »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:39 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:52 am

The Bonpo Dzogchen tradition demonstrably depends on the Buddhist tradition. That said, Bon Dzogchen has its own tantras, traditions, and so on, and rightfully deserves to be considered an independent tradition.
What do you think is the relationship between the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud and the 17 Tantras? You mentioned in your intro to the Blazing Lamp Tantra that Longchenpa likely received the Six Lamps and that he incorporated it into his writings for example. I am wondering whether the 17 Tantras were derived from the ZZNG, or vice versa, or they both developed in tandem as a result of a contemporary revolution of ideas in the Tibetan yogic community at that time.
Guess who hid the Bon termas?

From the Golden Spoon text by the Bon Tertön Yungdrung Lingpa:
Vairotsana was sitting in the Tiger's Nest in Bhutan.
When he was practising in the cave there one night, the cave became filled with light, the earth trembled and emitted sounds like a dragon roaring. Vairotsana looked in front of him and in a rainbow circle he saw Drenpa Namkha with his 2 sons; they appeared directly to him

Drenpa Namkha was white in colour and decorated with the 6 bone ornaments.
In his right hand he was holding up a swastika which was spinning by his head.
In his left hand he was holding a skull cup filled with blood.
Under his arm he was holding a trident decorated with semiprecious and precious stones as well as with various silk drapes. He was in a dancing posture, and he was moving.

His son, Tsewang Rigdzin, was a darkish white colour.
All his ornaments and decorations were perfect and Vairotsana saw him clearly. He felt devotion to him at that time. This teaching was written in gold and kept inside a gold reliquary box.

Drenpa Narnkha touched Vairotsana's forehead, neck and chest with it and gave him the 4 empowerments.
He gave him the 3 important points of teaching and also advice.

He said:
'Ho!
Boy of awareness, spiritual son! Do it be deluded! Listen to me!
I am Garab Dorje,
I am Drenpa Namkha
I am Lhagod Thoglebar,
I am Namkha Yungdrung,
I am also Drugse
Chemchog Kagying.
I show a Bönku form.
To whoever is devoted to me, I will appear as Sambhogakaya,
Impure beings will see me as Nirmanakaya.
I am the King of the Quintessence of the Three Kayas.
I am also the Free Life, Lachen Drenpa, the great lama of Namkha.

This is the essence of the Ultimate Vehicle of Bon.
This is the drops of nectar from the golden spoon.
Practise and then hide this as a treasure.'
And then he gave the teachings to Vairotsana. Vairotsana hid it in the Tiger's Nest.
:tongue: :tongue:
Yes, I am aware of Bon Dzogchen termas which clearly incorporate their Nyingma cousins also, but I am more interested in the older ZZNG. The history of early Mengagde is just pretty ill defined in general.
Malcolm
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:45 pm
Yes, I am aware of Bon Dzogchen termas which clearly incorporate their Nyingma cousins also, but I am more interested in the older ZZNG. The history of early Mengagde is just pretty ill defined in general.
It’s pretty well defined, but the dates are the issue.

The snyan brgyud is supposed to provide the bridge between Nyang Tingzin Zangpo and Dangma Lhungyal.
James Sealy
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by James Sealy »

Virgo wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:54 am
lelopa wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:31 pm
James Sealy wrote: Further this information, was teached by the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, so it is valid for all Bönpos, because Rinpoche is the head Teacher of all Bönpos worldwide.
...
Ehem.. (clears throat).
Virgo wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:54 pm James is only convinced by what he thinks is the biggest, holiest, most impressive, authority. That is why he is impressed by these things, and why he is impressed by his Guru, who is the head of Bon. This kind of discussion (the kind we have all been having with him) does not work for him. What he needs to do is hear these things from the mouth of the highest authority in his mind, and only then will he be convinced by this. And I hope he does that. Perhaps James should request some teachings? In his mind, he compares your words to what he perceives as the most magnificent authority, and if they don't appear to line up in his mind then you are by default wrong, because you do not have such authority and therefore must be wrong. This is why is also puts so much weight in the "deeper levels", and long histories, etc.

James may you find all that you need in this holy Dharma...

Virgo
Once again, this phenomena was pointed out by Aristotle 2.5 millennia ago.

People would do well to structure their responses in light of this, rather than endlessly waste their time.

Virgo
Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes, this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.
Malcolm
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:56 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:54 am
lelopa wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 3:31 pm ...
Ehem.. (clears throat).
Virgo wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:54 pm James is only convinced by what he thinks is the biggest, holiest, most impressive, authority. That is why he is impressed by these things, and why he is impressed by his Guru, who is the head of Bon. This kind of discussion (the kind we have all been having with him) does not work for him. What he needs to do is hear these things from the mouth of the highest authority in his mind, and only then will he be convinced by this. And I hope he does that. Perhaps James should request some teachings? In his mind, he compares your words to what he perceives as the most magnificent authority, and if they don't appear to line up in his mind then you are by default wrong, because you do not have such authority and therefore must be wrong. This is why is also puts so much weight in the "deeper levels", and long histories, etc.

James may you find all that you need in this holy Dharma...

Virgo
Once again, this phenomena was pointed out by Aristotle 2.5 millennia ago.

People would do well to structure their responses in light of this, rather than endlessly waste their time.

Virgo
Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes, this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.
James Sealy
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:48 pm

Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by James Sealy »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:21 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:56 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:54 am

Ehem.. (clears throat).



Once again, this phenomena was pointed out by Aristotle 2.5 millennia ago.

People would do well to structure their responses in light of this, rather than endlessly waste their time.

Virgo
Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes, this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.
For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view. Both are venerated by their adherents, a normal case in Tibetan "Buddhism".
Last edited by James Sealy on Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stoneinfocus
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by stoneinfocus »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:21 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:56 pm

Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes, this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.
For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view.
You can respect authority figures in your lineage without throwing your brain out the window.
James Sealy
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:48 pm

Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by James Sealy »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:29 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:21 pm

Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.
For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view.
You can respect authority figures in your lineage without throwing your brain out the window.
In the veneration of our Bön Tsawe Lama, we keep the head in the air and feet on the ground, that avoids floating , and the need of throwing out the dualistic Madyamika brains out of the windows, of "my and not others" water lamp eyes.
Malcolm
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:21 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:56 pm

Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes, this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.
For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view. Both are venerated by their adherents, a normal case in Tibetan "Buddhism".
You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

You keep making the same logical error, “arguing from authority.” Buddhists also make this error when they do not distinguish myth from history. Bon myths, like Buddhist myths, are integral their identity as traditions, but this does not render these narratives “history.”

Simply put, the weight of evidence suggests that Bonpos adopted Buddhist systems, wrote their own literature based on Buddhist models in order to compete with Buddhists.
Kai lord
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Kai lord »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:25 pm For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view. Both are venerated by their adherents, a normal case in Tibetan "Buddhism".
Nonsense, the history of humanity belongs to all humans, not just a specific small group of individuals. If the mere view or opinions of a tiny group of humans can become history, then what is stopping any races or religions in the current world from claiming that their ancestors or founders were first or most ancient source for all religions and humanity?

Like it or not, history has a proven methodology to it. Thats why stuffs like adam and eve remains a myth, not historical fact.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
James Sealy
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by James Sealy »

Kai lord wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:30 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:25 pm For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view. Both are venerated by their adherents, a normal case in Tibetan "Buddhism".
Nonsense, the history of humanity belongs to all humans, not just a specific small group of individuals. If the mere view or opinions of a tiny group of humans can become history, then what is stopping any races or religions in the current world from claiming that their ancestors or founders were first or most ancient source for all religions and humanity?

Like it or not, history has a proven methodology to it. Thats why stuffs like adam and eve remains a myth, not historical fact.
Well , here ends my discussion with you. Bön seems to be a 16000 years old tradition and that can never be in agreement with the general view here aboard.

"I" am not here to get some rights from you, for that i am not present here. Reason this is a "pure" Tibetan "Buddhist" forum and Bön is "tollerated" for some reasons.
"I" am here to represent Yungdrung Bön topics, and that for 100%.
"I" never add water to the wine, if i deal with Bön Dharma, that should also be very clear for you all.

So we leave it like that, Bön = Bön and Dorje Thekpa is Dorje Thekpa with all its roots in Hinayana and Mahayana and the rest.
Sometimes we can agree and sometimes not, that is reality.
Norwegian
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Norwegian »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:50 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:30 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:25 pm For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view. Both are venerated by their adherents, a normal case in Tibetan "Buddhism".
Nonsense, the history of humanity belongs to all humans, not just a specific small group of individuals. If the mere view or opinions of a tiny group of humans can become history, then what is stopping any races or religions in the current world from claiming that their ancestors or founders were first or most ancient source for all religions and humanity?

Like it or not, history has a proven methodology to it. Thats why stuffs like adam and eve remains a myth, not historical fact.
Well , here ends my discussion with you. Bön seems to be a 16000 years old tradition and that can never be in agreement with the general view here aboard.

"I" am not here to get some rights from you, for that i am not present here. Reason this is a "pure" Tibetan "Buddhist" forum and Bön is "tollerated" for some reasons.
"I" am here to represent Yungdrung Bön topics, and that for 100%.
"I" never add water to the wine, if i deal with Bön Dharma, that should also be very clear for you all.

So we leave it like that, Bön = Bön and Dorje Thekpa is Dorje Thekpa with all its roots in Hinayana and Mahayana and the rest.
Sometimes we can agree and sometimes not, that is reality.
Your problem is that you think myths are the actual teachings, when they're not. Furthermore, you conflate myth with history, thinking that they're the same thing. Another error.

From the Akshayamatinirdesha (https://read.84000.co/translation/toh175.html):

"Furthermore, Venerable Śāradvatīputra, the bodhisatvas’ four reliances are also imperishable. What are these four? They are the reliance on the meaning but not on the letter, the reliance on wisdom but not on consciousness, the reliance on the sūtras of definitive meaning but not on the sūtras of implicit meaning, and the reliance on the true state of phenomena but not on the person."

and:

"What are the sūtras of definitive meaning and the sūtras of implicit meaning? The sūtras that are taught in order to help one enter the way are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to help one reach the fruit of the way are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to demonstrate the relative truth are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to demonstrate the ultimate truth are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to help one engage in actions and duties are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught for the sake of the cessation of actions and afflictions are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to explain affliction are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to explain purification are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to produce disgust for existence are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to help one enter the nonduality of nirvāṇa and existence are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught with various words and syllables are called implicit, while the sūtras that teach that which is deep, hard to see, and hard to understand are called definitive. The sūtras with many words and syllables that are taught in order to please the thoughts of living beings are called implicit, [F.150.b] while the sūtras with few words and syllables that are taught in order to produce mental introspection in living beings are called definitive. The sūtras that, with various words, proclaim a self, a being, a life principle, a life-sustaining principle, a spirit, a personality, a human being, a man, a subject that acts, and a subject that feels and those that teach that there is a ruler where there is no ruler are called implicit. The sūtras that teach emptiness, the absence of distinguishing marks, the absence of anything to long for, the unconditioned, the unborn, the unoriginated, the nonexistent, the absence of self, the absence of being, the absence of soul, the absence of person, the absence of spirit, the absence of ruler, and the gates of liberation are called definitive. This is called the reliance on the sūtras of definitive meaning, not on the sūtras of implicit meaning."

Something you should consider.

Also, James Sealy aka kalden yungdrung, for years you have struggled understanding what people are actually saying, likely due to a language gap, and that's a deep pity. You end up taking things all too personal, getting upset at what people are saying, when there's no animosity or nothing personal going on. Your inability to understand that the teachings and things like history as well as mythologies are separate things, means that you'll often come with very strange arguments about these issues.

You speak loudly and proudly for Bön, as if all of Bön appointed you to be their spokesperson, with the ability to say what the teachings are, how things are done, or who has received Bön and who has not, and so on, but that's just not the case. Not to mention that in your posts, now and before, you often have rather heavy misconceptions and serious errors about particular topics, be they about Buddhadharma or Bön.

You're just some guy, one out of many, like all of us here, and that makes your constant banging the drum routine awkward in the end.
James Sealy
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by James Sealy »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:21 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:56 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:54 am

Ehem.. (clears throat).



Once again, this phenomena was pointed out by Aristotle 2.5 millennia ago.

People would do well to structure their responses in light of this, rather than endlessly waste their time.

Virgo
Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes, this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.
Well then discuss that with that respected person, named Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, bring it there on the table.
The outcome would be very interesting !

Untill then i will uphold His teachings and views.
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Aryjna »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:50 pm "I" am not here to get some rights from you, for that i am not present here. Reason this is a "pure" Tibetan "Buddhist" forum and Bön is "tollerated" for some reasons.
"I" am here to represent Yungdrung Bön topics, and that for 100%.
This is a buddhist forum, as should be very clear from the name of the forum, the names of the subforums, etc.

Since you seem to have a problem with that, this may not be the right forum for you.
James Sealy
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by James Sealy »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:21 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 1:56 pm

Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes, this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.
Well then discuss that with that respected person, named Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, bring it there on the table.
The outcome would be very interesting !

Untill then i will uphold His teachings and views.

By the way, i can arrange for you an appointment.
Kai lord
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Kai lord »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:50 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:30 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:25 pm For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view. Both are venerated by their adherents, a normal case in Tibetan "Buddhism".
Nonsense, the history of humanity belongs to all humans, not just a specific small group of individuals. If the mere view or opinions of a tiny group of humans can become history, then what is stopping any races or religions in the current world from claiming that their ancestors or founders were first or most ancient source for all religions and humanity?

Like it or not, history has a proven methodology to it. Thats why stuffs like adam and eve remains a myth, not historical fact.
Well , here ends my discussion with you. Bön seems to be a 16000 years old tradition and that can never be in agreement with the general view here aboard.
Go ahead. To be frank, if this is a private conservation not a public forum where information or misinformation is widely shared and spread, I won't even bother discussing history with you because it would be simply a waste of time.

Bon is 16000 years old? Big deal. Buddhism is eons years old if you include all the past Buddhas but we don't force those narratives down the throats of historians and treat them casually almost like bedtimes stories.
"I" am not here to get some rights from you, for that i am not present here. Reason this is a "pure" Tibetan "Buddhist" forum and Bön is "tollerated" for some reasons.
And no one here is interested to do anything with regards to your rights. If anyone see unproven narratives pretending to be history, they have the rights to challenge and speak out.
"I" am here to represent Yungdrung Bön topics, and that for 100%.
"I" never add water to the wine, if i deal with Bön Dharma, that should also be very clear for you all.
Yeah but history is not dharma. Its simply events that have occurred before.
So we leave it like that, Bön = Bön and Dorje Thekpa is Dorje Thekpa with all its roots in Hinayana and Mahayana and the rest.
Sometimes we can agree and sometimes not, that is reality.
You are sounding like those young or old earthers that used to come to science forums to challenge all science nerds over there.
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Norwegian
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Norwegian »

Kai lord wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:38 pm Bon is 16000 years old? Big deal. Buddhism is eons years old if you include all the past Buddhas but we don't force those narratives down the throats of historians and treat them casually almost like bedtimes stories.
:twothumbsup:
James Sealy
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:48 pm

Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by James Sealy »

Aryjna wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:36 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:50 pm "I" am not here to get some rights from you, for that i am not present here. Reason this is a "pure" Tibetan "Buddhist" forum and Bön is "tollerated" for some reasons.
"I" am here to represent Yungdrung Bön topics, and that for 100%.
This is a buddhist forum, as should be very clear from the name of the forum, the names of the subforums, etc.

Since you seem to have a problem with that, this may not be the right forum for you.
Maybe you are right.
This forum is not the right place for Bönpos and other outsiders.
I guess the Bön forum is there only for fun.
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Aryjna
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Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?

Post by Aryjna »

James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:49 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:36 pm
James Sealy wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:50 pm "I" am not here to get some rights from you, for that i am not present here. Reason this is a "pure" Tibetan "Buddhist" forum and Bön is "tollerated" for some reasons.
"I" am here to represent Yungdrung Bön topics, and that for 100%.
This is a buddhist forum, as should be very clear from the name of the forum, the names of the subforums, etc.

Since you seem to have a problem with that, this may not be the right forum for you.
Maybe you are right.
This forum is not the right place for Bönpos and other outsiders.
I guess the Bön forum is there only for fun.
But this is not the Bön forum.
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