Ngondro with or without empowerment???

[KonchogUrgyenNyima]

So I have been endeavoring to deepen my understanding of my ngondro practice. I practice Longchen Nyingthig.

I have heard it said by many people that one does not need empowerment in order to practice the LN ngondro. But how can that be true?

For one, in the guru yoga we receive the four empowerments. My understanding is that one needs to have received the four empowerments from one’s master before practicing something like that?

The text also clearly states that one should rest in the state of dzgchen multiple times, but how would one know how to do that without empowerment, where it is introduced?

In the refuge itself, there is talk of the three roots and the winds drops and channels, where if ngondro is the starting point, then one would not have a Yidam or khandro, or a guru for that matter, let alone know anything about the winds etc.

so… what’s the truth?

One does or does not need empowerment to practice the LN ngondro? Is it one of those things where traditionally it was done one way and now it’s not? Or is everyone actually supposed to have been fully empowered before starting the ngondro?

I have always been told that one only needs lung and tri and you’re good.

[kirtu]

So I have been endeavoring to deepen my understanding of my ngondro practice. I practice Longchen Nyingthig.

I have heard it said by many people that one does not need empowerment in order to practice the LN ngondro. But how can that be true?

For one, in the guru yoga we receive the four empowerments. My understanding is that one needs to have received the four empowerments from one’s master before practicing something like that?
...

so… what’s the truth?

...

I have always been told that one only needs lung and tri and you’re good.

When I moved from Zen practice to TB practice I was told to begin LN refuge practice right away by my main Palyul khenpo. This was after having taken my first TB empowerment and the khenpo knew my Dharma practice history. He said technically I needed lung and tri but he would give it later, which he did. He did give specific instructions at that time.

I don't remember if there was an empowerment for guru yoga.

So usually one is told that they need lung and tri for LN ngondro but I don't remember what happened with GY specifically.

[heart]

So I have been endeavoring to deepen my understanding of my ngondro practice. I practice Longchen Nyingthig.

I have heard it said by many people that one does not need empowerment in order to practice the LN ngondro. But how can that be true?

For one, in the guru yoga we receive the four empowerments. My understanding is that one needs to have received the four empowerments from one’s master before practicing something like that?

The text also clearly states that one should rest in the state of dzgchen multiple times, but how would one know how to do that without empowerment, where it is introduced?

In the refuge itself, there is talk of the three roots and the winds drops and channels, where if ngondro is the starting point, then one would not have a Yidam or khandro, or a guru for that matter, let alone know anything about the winds etc.

so… what’s the truth?

One does or does not need empowerment to practice the LN ngondro? Is it one of those things where traditionally it was done one way and now it’s not? Or is everyone actually supposed to have been fully empowered before starting the ngondro?

I have always been told that one only needs lung and tri and you’re good.

Since you do self visualisation as Vajrasattva in the long LN ngondro a shitro or vajrasattva empowerment is preferable.

[pemachophel]

I agree with Heart. Vajra Sattva empowerment (at least the vase empowerment recommended) recommended but not absolutely required..

[conebeckham]

Some Lamas I know give Rigdzin Dupa as a prerequisite for LN Ngondro. I don't think that's universal, though.

[KonchogUrgyenNyima]

Some Lamas I know give Rigdzin Dupa as a prerequisite for LN Ngondro. I don't think that's universal, though.

This is really interesting to me. I think I read somewhere that this is the traditional way of doing things. Even then though, the refuge prayer mentions the three roots and a bunch of other ati yoga stuff throughout the rest of the text. so when you’re supposed to be taking refuge in the three roots, obviously you have the guru at that point, but what are you supposed to do about the khandro and Yidam? What are you taking refuge in?

It also it leaves a lot of presupposed knowledge throughout the rest of the text where, if you’re doing the ngondro as a beginner, you’re supposed to have knowledge of things that… you’re not supposed to know about???? Specifically the dza lung tigle part of the refuge prayer. How does one take refuge in dza lung and tigle if one has no knowledge of these things. Another point in the text stresses not just making empty mouthings of your prayers. How can a beginner do anything else?

As I understand it, one does the ngondro, the three roots, and then dzogchen. My basic question is: why then is it assumed that you have knowledge of and experience in these later stages at the very beginning?

[heart]

Some Lamas I know give Rigdzin Dupa as a prerequisite for LN Ngondro. I don't think that's universal, though.

This is really interesting to me. I think I read somewhere that this is the traditional way of doing things. Even then though, the refuge prayer mentions the three roots and a bunch of other ati yoga stuff throughout the rest of the text. so when you’re supposed to be taking refuge in the three roots, obviously you have the guru at that point, but what are you supposed to do about the khandro and Yidam? What are you taking refuge in?

It also it leaves a lot of presupposed knowledge throughout the rest of the text where, if you’re doing the ngondro as a beginner, you’re supposed to have knowledge of things that… you’re not supposed to know about???? Specifically the dza lung tigle part of the refuge prayer. How does one take refuge in dza lung and tigle if one has no knowledge of these things. Another point in the text stresses not just making empty mouthings of your prayers. How can a beginner do anything else?

As I understand it, one does the ngondro, the three roots, and then dzogchen. My basic question is: why then is it assumed that you have knowledge of and experience in these later stages at the very beginning?

You take refuge in the method, tsa, lung, tigle, guru, yidam, dakini. You put your trust in it that is all. In the Nyingma there are so many ngondros, every major cycle have one. If you have the intention to practice a cycle you will start by doing some of its ngondro. So ngondro is not really only for beginners. In fact I think it is unfortunate that it have become a beginners practice in the west since the counting take away a lot of the joy of practicing when you are a beginner and without joy practice becomes difficult and less effective.
Also, Dzogchen is not at the end of ngondro and the three roots, it starts when you connect with a Dzogchen teacher. All of Tulku Urgyens sons give direct introduction all the time without any need to have finished ngondro and the three roots. Ngondro is something quite wonderful to do when you start to appreciate it and realise that you are not doing it for some later purpose. The same goes for the three roots actually.

[conebeckham]

Some Lamas I know give Rigdzin Dupa as a prerequisite for LN Ngondro. I don't think that's universal, though.

This is really interesting to me. I think I read somewhere that this is the traditional way of doing things. Even then though, the refuge prayer mentions the three roots and a bunch of other ati yoga stuff throughout the rest of the text. so when you’re supposed to be taking refuge in the three roots, obviously you have the guru at that point, but what are you supposed to do about the khandro and Yidam? What are you taking refuge in?

It also it leaves a lot of presupposed knowledge throughout the rest of the text where, if you’re doing the ngondro as a beginner, you’re supposed to have knowledge of things that… you’re not supposed to know about???? Specifically the dza lung tigle part of the refuge prayer. How does one take refuge in dza lung and tigle if one has no knowledge of these things. Another point in the text stresses not just making empty mouthings of your prayers. How can a beginner do anything else?

As I understand it, one does the ngondro, the three roots, and then dzogchen. My basic question is: why then is it assumed that you have knowledge of and experience in these later stages at the very beginning?

You take refuge in the method, tsa, lung, tigle, guru, yidam, dakini. You put your trust in it that is all. In the Nyingma there are so many ngondros, every major cycle have one. If you have the intention to practice a cycle you will start by doing some of its ngondro. So ngondro is not really only for beginners. In fact I think it is unfortunate that it have become a beginners practice in the west since the counting take away a lot of the joy of practicing when you are a beginner and without joy practice becomes difficult and less effective.
Also, Dzogchen is not at the end of ngondro and the three roots, it starts when you connect with a Dzogchen teacher. All of Tulku Urgyens sons give direct introduction all the time without any need to have finished ngondro and the three roots. Ngondro is something quite wonderful to do when you start to appreciate it and realise that you are not doing it for some later purpose. The same goes for the three roots actually.

Agreed 100%--I will just add that LN Ngondro, in particular, (and many other "Nyingma" or "Dzogchen" ngondros, for that matter) are great "pointers" for topics to learn about--and that ngondro can be practiced from "within the view," which is the best way to practice it, actually. In particular, Guru Yoga, which is really what Ngondro is an extensive form of, is the main practice. If you have had direct introduction or Pointing Out and understood the meaning of those instructions, all practice is really Dzogchen practice--but it's also the supreme way to gather accumulations.

Just to offer a bit of a counter-point to your question--I did Kamtsang Ngondro for a long time, and of course we take refuge in the three jewels and three roots in Kagyu Ngondro. So you're taking refuge in "objects" that perhaps you don't or can't fully understand at the beginning of your path. In the Guru Yoga there are direct statements relating to Mahamudra, as well, and all practice is initially aspirational, to a degree. At some point, by doing the practice, and by continuing to receive the teacher's instructions and by continuing to study, true understanding of all these things will dawn. That's the idea, anyway!

[KonchogUrgyenNyima]

Some Lamas I know give Rigdzin Dupa as a prerequisite for LN Ngondro. I don't think that's universal, though.

This is really interesting to me. I think I read somewhere that this is the traditional way of doing things. Even then though, the refuge prayer mentions the three roots and a bunch of other ati yoga stuff throughout the rest of the text. so when you’re supposed to be taking refuge in the three roots, obviously you have the guru at that point, but what are you supposed to do about the khandro and Yidam? What are you taking refuge in?

It also it leaves a lot of presupposed knowledge throughout the rest of the text where, if you’re doing the ngondro as a beginner, you’re supposed to have knowledge of things that… you’re not supposed to know about???? Specifically the dza lung tigle part of the refuge prayer. How does one take refuge in dza lung and tigle if one has no knowledge of these things. Another point in the text stresses not just making empty mouthings of your prayers. How can a beginner do anything else?

As I understand it, one does the ngondro, the three roots, and then dzogchen. My basic question is: why then is it assumed that you have knowledge of and experience in these later stages at the very beginning?

You take refuge in the method, tsa, lung, tigle, guru, yidam, dakini. You put your trust in it that is all. In the Nyingma there are so many ngondros, every major cycle have one. If you have the intention to practice a cycle you will start by doing some of its ngondro. So ngondro is not really only for beginners. In fact I think it is unfortunate that it have become a beginners practice in the west since the counting take away a lot of the joy of practicing when you are a beginner and without joy practice becomes difficult and less effective.
Also, Dzogchen is not at the end of ngondro and the three roots, it starts when you connect with a Dzogchen teacher. All of Tulku Urgyens sons give direct introduction all the time without any need to have finished ngondro and the three roots. Ngondro is something quite wonderful to do when you start to appreciate it and realise that you are not doing it for some later purpose. The same goes for the three roots actually.

Yes this is actually the hidden motive behind my question. I am interested in Ngondro as an entire path. The words of my perfect teacher states explicitly that it contains the entire path. There are also several lineages, such as drikung kagyu, that emphasize the preliminaries under the same notion.

I was wondering if it was really possible to practice ngondro alone, without any empowerments or pointing out or anything like that.

[KonchogUrgyenNyima]

This is really interesting to me. I think I read somewhere that this is the traditional way of doing things. Even then though, the refuge prayer mentions the three roots and a bunch of other ati yoga stuff throughout the rest of the text. so when you’re supposed to be taking refuge in the three roots, obviously you have the guru at that point, but what are you supposed to do about the khandro and Yidam? What are you taking refuge in?

It also it leaves a lot of presupposed knowledge throughout the rest of the text where, if you’re doing the ngondro as a beginner, you’re supposed to have knowledge of things that… you’re not supposed to know about???? Specifically the dza lung tigle part of the refuge prayer. How does one take refuge in dza lung and tigle if one has no knowledge of these things. Another point in the text stresses not just making empty mouthings of your prayers. How can a beginner do anything else?

As I understand it, one does the ngondro, the three roots, and then dzogchen. My basic question is: why then is it assumed that you have knowledge of and experience in these later stages at the very beginning?

You take refuge in the method, tsa, lung, tigle, guru, yidam, dakini. You put your trust in it that is all. In the Nyingma there are so many ngondros, every major cycle have one. If you have the intention to practice a cycle you will start by doing some of its ngondro. So ngondro is not really only for beginners. In fact I think it is unfortunate that it have become a beginners practice in the west since the counting take away a lot of the joy of practicing when you are a beginner and without joy practice becomes difficult and less effective.
Also, Dzogchen is not at the end of ngondro and the three roots, it starts when you connect with a Dzogchen teacher. All of Tulku Urgyens sons give direct introduction all the time without any need to have finished ngondro and the three roots. Ngondro is something quite wonderful to do when you start to appreciate it and realise that you are not doing it for some later purpose. The same goes for the three roots actually.

Just to offer a bit of a counter-point to your question--I did Kamtsang Ngondro for a long time, and of course we take refuge in the three jewels and three roots in Kagyu Ngondro. So you're taking refuge in "objects" that perhaps you don't or can't fully understand at the beginning of your path. In the Guru Yoga there are direct statements relating to Mahamudra, as well, and all practice is initially aspirational, to a degree. At some point, by doing the practice, and by continuing to receive the teacher's instructions and by continuing to study, true understanding of all these things will dawn. That's the idea, anyway!

Good point. I guess the aspirational aspect is pretty important. Even if we were practicing the ngondro and had all the empowerments and the pointings out, it’s all pretty aspirational until we are fully awakened.

[heart]

This is really interesting to me. I think I read somewhere that this is the traditional way of doing things. Even then though, the refuge prayer mentions the three roots and a bunch of other ati yoga stuff throughout the rest of the text. so when you’re supposed to be taking refuge in the three roots, obviously you have the guru at that point, but what are you supposed to do about the khandro and Yidam? What are you taking refuge in?

It also it leaves a lot of presupposed knowledge throughout the rest of the text where, if you’re doing the ngondro as a beginner, you’re supposed to have knowledge of things that… you’re not supposed to know about???? Specifically the dza lung tigle part of the refuge prayer. How does one take refuge in dza lung and tigle if one has no knowledge of these things. Another point in the text stresses not just making empty mouthings of your prayers. How can a beginner do anything else?

As I understand it, one does the ngondro, the three roots, and then dzogchen. My basic question is: why then is it assumed that you have knowledge of and experience in these later stages at the very beginning?

You take refuge in the method, tsa, lung, tigle, guru, yidam, dakini. You put your trust in it that is all. In the Nyingma there are so many ngondros, every major cycle have one. If you have the intention to practice a cycle you will start by doing some of its ngondro. So ngondro is not really only for beginners. In fact I think it is unfortunate that it have become a beginners practice in the west since the counting take away a lot of the joy of practicing when you are a beginner and without joy practice becomes difficult and less effective.
Also, Dzogchen is not at the end of ngondro and the three roots, it starts when you connect with a Dzogchen teacher. All of Tulku Urgyens sons give direct introduction all the time without any need to have finished ngondro and the three roots. Ngondro is something quite wonderful to do when you start to appreciate it and realise that you are not doing it for some later purpose. The same goes for the three roots actually.

Yes this is actually the hidden motive behind my question. I am interested in Ngondro as an entire path. The words of my perfect teacher states explicitly that it contains the entire path. There are also several lineages, such as drikung kagyu, that emphasize the preliminaries under the same notion.

I was wondering if it was really possible to practice ngondro alone, without any empowerments or pointing out or anything like that.

You should get at least the "lung" transmission and instructions for the ngondro you want to do.

[Ayu]

I have no idea how strictly or individually different this question is being handled in Dzogchen.
I just can tell, that I started e. g. prostrations without lung or any instructions. This was like testing the practice. I tried to understand what's it all about.
But after I received instructions and a kind of blessing, the whole project recieved much better motivation, power and protection. I developed a kind of stubbornness for just doing it, no matter what.

[Giovanni]

It’s easy for the eye to skip past Conebeckham’s sentence about “continuing to receive instruction from the teacher” , but it is of the essence.

[Malcolm]

I have no idea how strictly or individually different this question is being handled in Dzogchen.
I just can tell, that I started e. g. prostrations without lung or any instructions. This was like testing the practice. I tried to understand what's it all about.
But after I received instructions and a kind of blessing, the whole project recieved much better motivation, power and protection. I developed a kind of stubbornness for just doing it, no matter what.

One does not need any transmission to do prostrations

[Ayu]

I have no idea how strictly or individually different this question is being handled in Dzogchen.
I just can tell, that I started e. g. prostrations without lung or any instructions. This was like testing the practice. I tried to understand what's it all about.
But after I received instructions and a kind of blessing, the whole project recieved much better motivation, power and protection. I developed a kind of stubbornness for just doing it, no matter what.

One does not need any transmission to do prostrations

That's fine.
Then maybe it was the blessing of my teacher that helped me. It's only a personal experience.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Just do whatever the teacher guiding your Ngondro says to do.

[Lingpupa]

...
One does not need any transmission to do prostrations

While true, I think this rather misses the point if I may say so.

Indeed, anyone can do prostrations to any form of the Buddha they like, make offerings and so forth. One might even be tempted to say they should !

But if someone wants to "do a ngondro" for a particular lineage of practice as usually understood - the Karma Kamtsang, Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingtig or any of the many alternatives - it is surely only proper, necessary even, for them to receive the permission and lung from a teacher of that lineage, isn't it?

Otherwise it's like walking around saying, for example, that Mandy Moore is your girlfriend when you only know her from the internet.

[Malcolm]

...
One does not need any transmission to do prostrations

While true, I think this rather misses the point if I may say so.

Indeed, anyone can do prostrations to any form of the Buddha they like, make offerings and so forth. One might even be tempted to say they should !

But if someone wants to "do a ngondro" for a particular lineage of practice as usually understood - the Karma Kamtsang, Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingtig or any of the many alternatives - it is surely only proper, necessary even, for them to receive the permission and lung from a teacher of that lineage, isn't it?

Otherwise it's like walking around saying, for example, that Mandy Moore is your girlfriend when you only know her from the internet.

The Buddha said to no-one ever, “you must ask my permission before you prostrate to me.”

[PadmaVonSamba]

But if someone wants to "do a ngondro" for a particular lineage of practice as usually understood - the Karma Kamtsang, Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingtig or any of the many alternatives - it is surely only proper, necessary even, for them to receive the permission and lung from a teacher of that lineage, isn't it?

Not permission, but you can ask for a blessing, a prayer to remove obstacles and so on.

When I first began took refuge and became part of the local sangha/temple, I had never heard of ngondro. We did a book study group on the outer preliminaries, but I didn’t know it had to do with anything specific. And occasionally I’d hear people talking about counters or prostration boards or mandala plates or whatever, but all of that was outside my frame of reference/awareness. Either it was the fault of the organization directors that they never formally introduced the concept of the practice of ngongdro, or else I was simply too dense to pick up on the fact that there was more going on there besides sadhana practices and sitting sessions.

Eventually, I spent a year working at the home monastery, and by that time I knew what ngondro was, and a lot of my friends there were in various stages of it. So, I told my lama (who knew me pretty well by then) that I wanted to do it too. He sort of shrugged a sort of “okay, whatever” expression, not exactly rolling his eyes, but just a kind of “sure, go for it” response, said some prayers on my mala and that was it.

Well, after doing 11,000 full prostrations, I realized that not only was I not really connecting with any of it except in the most contrived way, but that the whole thing had become a theatrical production in my mind, I was really getting into the bump that had developed on my forehead, and it had all become a huge distraction. Some people will say that I should have kept going and worked through all of that. I’m inclined to think that my teacher knew me better than I knew myself when he was like, “well, if that’s what you want to do, okay”.

I once asked Kalu Rinpoche (who does a weekly livestream Q&A on Facebook) whether ngondro was right for everyone. He said that yes, it is, that all Buddhist teachings are right for people.
But I don’t know that everyone is right for ngondro, and I suspect that in the future, for those Vajrayana Buddhists growing up in western culture, only a small percentage will ever engage in the four “traditional” ngondro practices. I’ve been told by teachers that there are actually all sorts of “ngondro” …ways to purify or burn through our negative accumulations.

[Lingpupa]

...
One does not need any transmission to do prostrations

While true, I think this rather misses the point if I may say so.

Indeed, anyone can do prostrations to any form of the Buddha they like, make offerings and so forth. One might even be tempted to say they should !

But if someone wants to "do a ngondro" for a particular lineage of practice as usually understood - the Karma Kamtsang, Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingtig or any of the many alternatives - it is surely only proper, necessary even, for them to receive the permission and lung from a teacher of that lineage, isn't it?

Otherwise it's like walking around saying, for example, that Mandy Moore is your girlfriend when you only know her from the internet.

The Buddha said to no-one ever, “you must ask my permission before you prostrate to me.”

That answer, while obviously true, misses the point of the original question 8n EXACTLY the same way as your previous answer. I shall not, therefore, bother to repeat my comments.