Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

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Domingo
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Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Domingo »

Someone suggested, it might be better to ask this question here...

Can anybody help me finding the source for following quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak?:

"You don't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra, there is no time!"

If I do an online search, only some posts in this forum show up, but none of them contain any reference.

Thanks!
Täpa
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Täpa »

Domingo wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:08 pm Someone suggested, it might be better to ask this question here...

Can anybody help me finding the source for following quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak?:

"You don't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra, there is no time!"

If I do an online search, only some posts in this forum show up, but none of them contain any reference.

Thanks!
I remember this quote, or something similar. My guess would be it is in Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, but not sure.
Täpa
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Täpa »

Domingo wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:08 pm Someone suggested, it might be better to ask this question here...

Can anybody help me finding the source for following quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak?:

"You don't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra, there is no time!"

If I do an online search, only some posts in this forum show up, but none of them contain any reference.

Thanks!
Hi Domingo, The posts i find with this quote come from Kalden Yungdrung. It appears to me to be a quote from a question and answer session. I do not recall there are publicly available books with this, so the quote probably comes from a restricted source, hence the quote cannot be find by google.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Sādhaka »

It's likely a translation by the Ermakovas.

Try contacting Shenten Dargye Ling, they might have a printed copy, or can direct you to the Lulu link for it if such exists.

And yea, believe it or not, there are still restricted texts within Yungdrung Bön, despite restrictions being a little loosened up in recent years.

Check first to see if a text is restricted, before posting quotes online.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Archie2009
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Archie2009 »

It might come from a restricted publication, but the opinion voiced in that quote shouldn't be controversial. Much the same goes for endless ngondro imo, but such a statement would likely cause tempers to flare on this board.
Domingo
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Domingo »

Thank you guys for your replies!
Täpa wrote: The posts i find with this quote come from Kalden Yungdrung.
AFAIK, Kalden is no longer active on this forum. Is anyone here who still has contact to him? If so, maybe you could ask him about the source of this quote? I don't really want to bother the people at Shenten to try to dig out the source for it...
Archie2009 wrote: ...but the opinion voiced in that quote shouldn't be controversial. Much the same goes for endless ngondro imo...
Yes, to me it's also not controversial. But then, there are some senior students of Lopön who insist that tantric practices, especially the complete set of ngöndro, are necessary, and that this is also the view of Lopön-la. That's why I'm curious, because those two views contradict each other completely. You can't say "you don't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra, there is not time", and at the same time declare "everybody has to do 900.000 preliminaries before engaging in Dzogchen."
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
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heart
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by heart »

Domingo wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:28 am
Archie2009 wrote: ...but the opinion voiced in that quote shouldn't be controversial. Much the same goes for endless ngondro imo...
Yes, to me it's also not controversial. But then, there are some senior students of Lopön who insist that tantric practices, especially the complete set of ngöndro, are necessary, and that this is also the view of Lopön-la. That's why I'm curious, because those two views contradict each other completely. You can't say "you don't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra, there is not time", and at the same time declare "everybody has to do 900.000 preliminaries before engaging in Dzogchen."
Jean-Luc Achard told me it was Lopöns opinion. He wrote a book about the ngondro, The Dawn of Awareness (The Practice Manual for the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen). It is quite an interesting practice actually.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
James Sealy
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by James Sealy »

Domingo wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:28 am Thank you guys for your replies!

Archie2009 wrote: ...but the opinion voiced in that quote shouldn't be controversial. Much the same goes for endless ngondro imo...
Yes, to me it's also not controversial. But then, there are some senior students of Lopön who insist that tantric practices, especially the complete set of ngöndro, are necessary, and that this is also the view of Lopön-la. That's why I'm curious, because those two views contradict each other completely. You can't say "you don't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra, there is not time", and at the same time declare "everybody has to do 900.000 preliminaries before engaging in Dzogchen."
The text that one does not Tantra as preparation to Dzogchen, that text i have that some where. in my library. But where, that is then the question.
It means that we can take that text literal.
Lopon la would never deny, the importance of the Tantric preliminaries, meant for the purification of certain devotees etc.

But he keeps also an opening for persons, who due to good karma are purified to a certain degree, came again in contact with Dzogchen , and can understand Dzogchen easy and belong so to the highest level of understanding persons.

Then the core of this text, explains that we do not have so much time in this life , to finish Tantra.So the ones, who like to be fast and have the related good karma , can follow Dzogchen without as a base Tantra. i and others can fully agree to that statement of Lopon la.

Lopon la , also explains that we never can become the Tantric Yidam, so he also has here some critics regarding Tantra.But Lopon la likes also Ma gyud , that is very certain.


I practice Dzogchen according to that text, and do not see Tantra, as a must, or as a preparation to Dzogchen.
In Dzogchen the Damchig is based on the right view or Tawa, and the preliminaries are the Korde rushen.
Lama Näldjor and the Bön Dzogchen protector i practice as Tantra. But here i can integrate it all with the natural state, or based on the natural state , and that is also somehow different from pure Tantric practice.
Further Sang smoke offerings for the Nagas.
Domingo
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Domingo »

heart wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:14 am Jean-Luc Achard told me it was Lopöns opinion. He wrote a book about the ngondro, The Dawn of Awareness (The Practice Manual for the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen). It is quite an interesting practice actually.
I know. In "The Dawn of Awareness" he writes (in the context of ngöndro): "It is therefore important that qualified students follow the advice and teachings of qualified Masters". Now, that's a problem, if Yongdzin Rinpoche indeed says that one doesn't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra (because there is not time) and at the same time says that ngöndro is indispensable.

BTW, JLA also writes in this book: "The practice of these nine extraordinary preliminaries is common to Sutras, Tantras and Dzogchen." Maybe I'm just absolutely ignorant, but since when and in what Sutra-traditions is this form of ngöndro practiced?
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
James Sealy
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by James Sealy »

Domingo wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:46 am
heart wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:14 am Jean-Luc Achard told me it was Lopöns opinion. He wrote a book about the ngondro, The Dawn of Awareness (The Practice Manual for the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen). It is quite an interesting practice actually.
I know. In "The Dawn of Awareness" he writes (in the context of ngöndro): "It is therefore important that qualified students follow the advice and teachings of qualified Masters". Now, that's a problem, if Yongdzin Rinpoche indeed says that one doesn't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra (because there is not time) and at the same time says that ngöndro is indispensable.

It means finally, that some need it and some don´t need it, based on their level of understanding and status of in how far they follow illusion.
James Sealy
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by James Sealy »

Domingo wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:08 pm Someone suggested, it might be better to ask this question here...

Can anybody help me finding the source for following quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak?:

"You don't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra, there is no time!"

If I do an online search, only some posts in this forum show up, but none of them contain any reference.

Thanks!

Here the full text:
The source is not known right on. I have to search for that. The undermentioned text, stems from that certain teaching, that is sure.


TANTRA KYERIM AND DZOGCHEN
By: Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.

Question:
Many practitioners practise both Tantra, Kyerim, and Dzogchen. What can you say about the fruit in that case?

Lopon Lak:
Yes, you can't get 2 minds, sometimes this, sometimes that and in the end it makes it more difficult to reach the final goal. You are not a Dzogchenpa, not a Tantric practitioner, you are a practitioner of both. You are a special one! Because you can use both. If we are already advanced practitioners we can integrate with Sutra and Tantra, even divination and medicine etc. We are able to integrate everything.
BUT THE ESSENTIAL PRACTICE IS DZOGCHEN.

Dzogchen practitioners are able to integrate with any activity - shopping, whatever, there is no problem.
Our early Masters practised Zhang Zhung Meri etc. in that way. They could obviously integrate everything, but their main practice was only Dzogchen. Some people think that from the beginning you have to do this or that, or that if you don 't first become a Tantric practitioner you can 't get Dzogchen.

But Tantra is just the taste, just the beginning; how far you have to practise, with purpose. All your life should be integrated with Tantric practice for years, years. It takes a long time, so when would you be ready for Dzogchen?

YOU DON' T NEED TO PREPARE FOR DZOGCHEN WITH TANTRA, THERE IS NOT TIME !

So if you are able to integrate any kind of activity of body, speech or mind, anything, then a Dzogchen practitioner could integrate everything very easily because it doesn't make much difference whatever you do.

Dzogchen doesn't need those other things, but maybe a specific practitioner is interested in helping others.
The whole thing. Whatever, whenever you do things, or you use consciousness and actions, that doesn't help Dzogchen.
Dzogchen is only to realize your real Nature and whether or not you are ready to do anything is up to the individual practitioner.
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heart
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by heart »

Domingo wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:46 am
heart wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:14 am Jean-Luc Achard told me it was Lopöns opinion. He wrote a book about the ngondro, The Dawn of Awareness (The Practice Manual for the Special Preliminaries of Dzogchen). It is quite an interesting practice actually.
I know. In "The Dawn of Awareness" he writes (in the context of ngöndro): "It is therefore important that qualified students follow the advice and teachings of qualified Masters". Now, that's a problem, if Yongdzin Rinpoche indeed says that one doesn't need to prepare for Dzogchen with tantra (because there is not time) and at the same time says that ngöndro is indispensable.

BTW, JLA also writes in this book: "The practice of these nine extraordinary preliminaries is common to Sutras, Tantras and Dzogchen." Maybe I'm just absolutely ignorant, but since when and in what Sutra-traditions is this form of ngöndro practiced?
You can try to communicate directly with Jean-Luc, I did and that is why I know he consider doing these preliminaries important. I think he mean that the essence of the Sutras, Tantras and Dzogchen can be found in these preliminaries. Anyway, after you received the direct introduction you can do as much trechö as you want and you can easily combine trechö with the preliminaries. If you do that you are also in balance with what Loppon says above.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Domingo
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by Domingo »

heart wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:49 pm I think he mean that the essence of the Sutras, Tantras and Dzogchen can be found in these preliminaries.
Well, my native language is german, not english, but when I look up all the possible translations for the word "common", then there's not a single translation which could be interpreted as "essence". Actually, just a couple of sentences later he writes: "These
preliminaries are all centered upon the Guru-Yoga". And I really don't see how Guruyoga could be common with Sutra traditions...
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
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heart
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Re: Looking for the source of a quote by Lopön Tenzin Namdak

Post by heart »

Domingo wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:38 pm
heart wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:49 pm I think he mean that the essence of the Sutras, Tantras and Dzogchen can be found in these preliminaries.
Well, my native language is german, not english, but when I look up all the possible translations for the word "common", then there's not a single translation which could be interpreted as "essence". Actually, just a couple of sentences later he writes: "These
preliminaries are all centered upon the Guru-Yoga". And I really don't see how Guruyoga could be common with Sutra traditions...
Don't be angry, just ask him yourself.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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