Best current translation of the Lankavatara

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Javierfv1212
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Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Javierfv1212 »

AFAIK there are currently three English Lanka translations: Suzuki, Red Pine, Cleary

According to previous DW threads on the subject, like this one, there are serious issues with Suzuki's translation. There also seem to be some issues with Red Pine's translation as well.

I haven't seen much about the third option, Cleary's translation.

Which is currently the best option for reading the Lanka?

Edit: I also discovered the following text exists:

Lankavatara Sutram. A Jewel Scripture of Mahayana Thought and Practice. Translated by Gishin TOKIWA. A study of the Four-Fascicle Lankavatara Ratna Sutram. In a Set of Four Texts: A Sanskrit Restoration, English and Japanese Translations with Introduction, and the Collated Gunabhadra Chinese Version with Japanese Reading.

This sounds like the most scholarly edition available atm. But I am having no luck finding where I can obtain this text. It seems it is not for sale anywhere and also I have scoured the net for a pdf or something but no luck. Maybe it is difficult to find because it is housed in some Japanese website somewhere and I am just searching for the english title?
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Dhammanando »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:24 pm Maybe it is difficult to find because it is housed in some Japanese website somewhere and I am just searching for the english title?
A pdf of it used to be housed on a Russian site, with the accompanying blurb:
Работы Гисина Токивы (Gishin TOKIWA)
Профессор Гисин Токива восстановил по санскритской версии Бунью Нандзё и китайскому переводу Гунабхадры (не содержащему первого и двух последних разделов сутры) санскритский текст Ланкаватары и выполнил переводы восстановленной версии на английский и японский. В связи с отсутствием грантов и спонсорской поддержки издал этот труд на свои средства в ста экземплярах и рассылал его исследователям Ланкаватары и Дзэн в качестве дара (dana). Благодаря чешскому исследователю Niraya, приславшему мне этот текст, мы имеем возможность его читать и изучать.
Google translate:
Works by Gishin Tokiwa (Gishin TOKIWA)

Professor Gisin Tokiwa restored the Sanskrit text of Lankavatara from the Sanskrit version of Bunya Nanjo and the Chinese translation of Gunabhadra (which does not contain the first and last two sections of the sutra) and translated the restored version into English and Japanese. Due to the lack of grants and sponsorship, he published this work at his own expense in one hundred copies and sent it to the researchers of Lankavatara and Zen as a gift (dana). Thanks to the Czech researcher Niraya, who sent me this text, we have the opportunity to read and study it.
But now when I go to the Russian page it no longer seems to have any clickable link. Perhaps you might find one if you play about with the Wayback Machine.

http://lirs.ru/do/trans-lanka.html

By the way, if you know French, you can get Patrick Carré's Soûtra de l'Entrée à Lankâ from Amazon:



and if you know German, here's a pdf of Karl-Heinz Golzio's 1996 translation, Lankavatara-Sutra. Die makellose Wahrheit erschauen:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190808134 ... asutra.pdf
Anders
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Anders »

Wayback doesn't have the pdfs either. And my google fu concludes that our best bet is that someone has saved the pdf when it used to exist online and can upload again.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
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As your companion in practice"

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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Anders wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:32 pm Wayback doesn't have the pdfs either. And my google fu concludes that our best bet is that someone has saved the pdf when it used to exist online and can upload again.
Yes, I checked this as well. I also saw an old DW thread where someone uploaded the file to mediafire but the link was dead. So I hope some one here has the file.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Javierfv1212 »

I also checked IRC and can confirm it is not there
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Just out of curiosity, what are the “issues” people cite with Red Pines translation? This is something I seem to hear all the time, but have never heard specifics.
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Some discussion of it in this old thread

Some highlights of the issues:

*his rendering of “samskāra” as “memory” does not bode well for the author's knowledge of Buddhist terminology
*not mentioning in the intro that he created a Frankenstein version that uses the Gunabhadra for the main section but pastes the remaining chapters from other Chinese versions
*Ven Huifeng says "I heard from a real authority in this area who was involved in the process that it wasn't much of an improvement over Suzuki"..."the philological issues like taking parts of one text and mixing them with parts of other texts"

However I don't want to give the impression Red Pine's translation has no merits, I'm just reporting what is on that thread. According to other online reviews I found, I conclude that the translation is just rather unscholarly, but this is not necessarily bad per se, just not very precise.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
Anders
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Anders »

Got hold of Tokiwa's from a fellow dharma brother

https://www.4shared.com/s/fcMc_uG8cfa
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Zhen Li »

Anders wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:07 am Got hold of Tokiwa's from a fellow dharma brother

https://www.4shared.com/s/fcMc_uG8cfa
Oh, this is just the introduction, unfortunately.

It does give some helpful information, however.

Suzuki based his translation on Nanjio's edition which was based on the model of Sikṣānanda's translation. Errors in the Sanskrit manuscripts accumulated gradually after initial compilation so that any Sanskrit edition needs serious editing. Sikṣānanda's translation is faulty, as is the Tibetan translation from the Sanskrit.

Tokiwa bases his translation on a Sanskrit arranged on the basis of Gunabhadra's translation, which Tokiwa argues represents the original compilation—the Tibetan translation based on Gunabhadra is held to be reliable. Tokiwa seems to have published the most studies of the Lankavatara. It would be nice to see his translation.

Also, the introduction appears to be lacking diacritics. I would be surprised if the original did not have diacritics. It would be ideal if a PDF made of the original, scanned, would be available.
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Javierfv1212 »

It seems the best version at the moment is Red Pine since he does rely on the Gunabhadra most of the time.

I am currently emailing back and forth with someone in Japan who claims to have two copies of the text and who apparently knows Mr Tokiwa personally and is willing to send me a copy. I will report back if this happens and try to get permission from the author to scan and share the work.

It is a bit frustrating because it seems a PDF did exist at some point but it has just vanished. Pretty weird because it seems like the most scholarly translation of this very important sutra and yet it just kind of disappeared from the web. :techproblem:

Anyways, stay tuned.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Javierfv1212 »

I found the document everyone, here it is:

https://www.pdfdrive.com/gishin-tokiwa- ... 38812.html

Me, Zhen Li and some others are doing a study group using this text, so if someone is interested PM me and I will send an invite link. It is on Telegram so you will have download the app.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Javierfv1212 »

The decision was made to actually re-translate the text since we have concerns with all current translations that exist.

Zhen Li will be leading the translation since he actually knows Chinese and Sanskrit. The rest of us will be reading and discussing together.

:twothumbsup:
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
Anders
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Anders »

Great work :twothumbsup:
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Svalaksana »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:59 pm I found the document everyone, here it is:

https://www.pdfdrive.com/gishin-tokiwa- ... 38812.html

Me, Zhen Li and some others are doing a study group using this text, so if someone is interested PM me and I will send an invite link. It is on Telegram so you will have download the app.
Much obliged, Javier.
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by shinewist »

Would someone in this thread who has the digital version of the Tokiwa's *Sanskrit* text mind reposting it? None of the links are working for me. (Posting it to the least sketchy site possible would be appreciated! Archive.org would be good.) Thanks in advance for any help!
Last edited by shinewist on Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Zhen Li »

shinewist wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:03 pm Would someone in this thread who has the digital version of the Tokiwa's *Sanskrit* text mind reposting it? None of the links are working for me. (Posting it to the least sketchy site possible would be appreciated! Archive.org would be good.) Thanks in advance for any help!
I have never seen a digital version of Tokiwa's Sanskrit text, only the English one.
I think it is only in circulation in libraries in Japan. The publication goes under the name "Laṅkāvatāra-Ratna-Sūtram Sarva-Buddha-Pravacana-Hṛdayam – A Sanskrit Restoration." If I ever get a copy I'll try to digitise it.

Since this thread started and we finished the first chapter, we essentially concluded that the most accurate translation out there is actually the one by Thomas Cleary.
But we are still working on a full translation of it alongside a study and translation of the Ghanavyūha. The Laṅkāvatāra publication that I am planning all four Chinese translations and Masster Ouyi's commentary, but probably exclude the Ravana chapter and Sagathakam. I think Javier will eventually publish his version as well, which currently includes the Ravana chapter.
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by shinewist »

Ah, thank you for clarifying that. I believe librs had it at one point -- or maybe not, maybe the unlinked title on their page was just a placeholder? If you or some could digitize it, that would be a blessing. I like Red Pine, but I did immediately notice some issues when reading his translation. Good to hear that Cleary's translation is holding up somewhat well, his yeoman service is undersung.
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by Zhen Li »

shinewist wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:47 pm Ah, thank you for clarifying that. I believe librs had it at one point -- or maybe not, maybe the unlinked title on their page was just a placeholder? If you or some could digitize it, that would be a blessing. I like Red Pine, but I did immediately notice some issues when reading his translation. Good to hear that Cleary's translation is holding up somewhat well, his yeoman service is undersung.
I'm not sure because I can't find that page now, but I believe it was just the English one. There is an errata list to his Sanskrit edition going around, but that isn't of much help.

Red Pine's translation doesn't hold up when you read it alongside the primary sources. It's too loose and is opaque as to which source is being translated at what time. This being said, it's accessible for the average reader, especially with the way he laid out his "commentary" and notes.

Tokiwa's work is a bit like an experiment. I think we don't feel it was so successful, and the methodology of recreating a Sanskrit and then translating that, didn't really convince us. The English translation itself is also too loose and seems to be veering too far from the sources.

I think we were impressed by the precision and care that Cleary evidently put into his translation. All of the misreadings and issues in Suzuki (whose translation is still decent), were pretty much clarified and corrected by Cleary.

Going back to Tokiwa, I think his instinct that Gunabhadra's translation is closer to an ur-text is fundamentally true. But I think Gunabhadra's text really deserves its own proper translation, rather than being used to recreate the form of something that may or may not have existed in the way hypothesised.
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Re: Best current translation of the Lankavatara

Post by shinewist »

That is useful, thanks.

I personally tend not to look at such Sanskrit shadow texts as reconstructions of a source text, but as reading texts minus the problem of translating Buddhist terminology into English. (Another way to do this is to produce an English translation and have all the terminology in Sanskrit or whatever.) And, since a lot of the time the text is liable to be decent, especially where there are other Sanskrit manuscripts or substantial fragments, fewer misunderstandings due to grammatical misconstrual.

If I'm fortunate enough I will be able to read Guṇabhadra's Chinese in a few years, but that's not the case now.
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