A valid voice crying in the wilderness

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by tingdzin »

He has posted here several times, but usually with the response he describes.
An_Open_Letter_to_Buddhist_Studies_Acade.pdf
(400.44 KiB) Downloaded 165 times
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:39 pm He has posted here several times, but usually with the response he describes.An_Open_Letter_to_Buddhist_Studies_Acade.pdf
It’s understandable.
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by tingdzin »

Well, until I see some concrete responses to his arguments, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. There's a willful ignorance about a lot of things that goes on even among repected academics.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:24 pm Well, until I see some concrete responses to his arguments, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. There's a willful ignorance about a lot of things that goes on even among repected academics.
It’s really not about his arguments…but even so, there are problems with his approach, for example, his willfully ignoring Wongchuk’s reference to an earlier translation and so on.
User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by KeithA »

I found it interesting, up to this point, then it all goes south, for me:
If the Heart Sutra was composed in China, then a lot of powerful and influential Buddhist figures —including the Dalai Lama and the late Thich Nhat Hanh—are potentially exposed as fallible.
Does the author really think this would turn Buddhism on it’s head?

Maybe in Asia. Or, maybe in the world of academia. But, it wouldn’t matter a bit to me if I found out the Heart Sutra was mostly, or even entirely, composed in China. Why would it matter?

🙏
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

KeithA wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:44 pm I found it interesting, up to this point, then it all goes south, for me:
If the Heart Sutra was composed in China, then a lot of powerful and influential Buddhist figures —including the Dalai Lama and the late Thich Nhat Hanh—are potentially exposed as fallible.
Does the author really think this would turn Buddhism on it’s head?

Maybe in Asia. Or, maybe in the world of academia. But, it wouldn’t matter a bit to me if I found out the Heart Sutra was mostly, or even entirely, composed in China. Why would it matter?

🙏
Keith
It doesn’t.

Indians accepted it as authentic, there are numerous Indian commentaries, beginning with Kamalashila’s and concluding with Atisha’s.

The idea that Buddhist leaders ought to be infallible is facially ridiculous. We are not Catholics and HHDL is not the pope.
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by akuppa »

Do posters here think there is any validity to his claim of essentially being ignored? Or the reasons for it?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

akuppa wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:14 pm Do posters here think there is any validity to his claim of essentially being ignored? Or the reasons for it?
His work isn’t ignored, it’s just not very original or interesting.

Given that Osborne plausibly fleshes out Nattier’s contention that the original text is an extract of a Chinese translation of the PP in 25k Lines, and was back translated into Sanskrit, we have an example of a text that was extracted from a reliable source. Such an extract would be called in Tibetan a “lung.”

Osborn’s paper:

https://academia.edu/resource/work/8275423
User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by KeithA »

akuppa wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:14 pm Do posters here think there is any validity to his claim of essentially being ignored? Or the reasons for it?
So, the author claims that academics are in kahoots with the religious people to keep his "gotcha" moment under wraps. A moment the author feels is deserving of a Nobel prize, which of course, he humbly doesn't desire.

Meh.

TBH, as a purely intellectual exercise, I enjoyed the points being made. But then it just devolved into foot stamping. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think that discovering the Heart Sutra is mainly a Chinese creation would be an existential crisis for Buddhists. But, I am just a stupid Western Zen person, not an academic, or a cradle Buddhist, or a literalist, so I may not have a good read on the situation.

That's my two cents, anyway.

_/|\_
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Virgo »

KeithA wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:44 pm Does the author really think this would turn Buddhism on it’s head?
Yep, but his assumption is wrong, clearly.

Theravāda, however, has proven to be very prone to academic influence. We have seen leaders in the community not only strongly adopt academic opinions, but become academics themselves, most notably Sujato. The influence he has had on the Theravāda community, especially in the past 10 years or so, is actually remarkable. His writings have influenced many and resulted in traditional Theravādin interpretations being evacuated by most Western hinayāna practitioners as well as by more and more Easterners. The trajectory being that eventually the majority of Easterners will reject them as well, in time, as their teachers accept the scholarship and adopt academic viewpoints more and more. We see this increasingly.

Mahāyāna is certainly less prone to this, but many Mahāyānis are in communication with the EBT communities and will be affected by this, though not as quickly.

The main problems that Tibetan Buddhism faces are different and they include the view that empowerments can be taken from recordings becoming the norm soon (maybe 10 years), the view that people are entitled to teachings and should not have to pay for them or support monastics or Buddhist properties, the view that sutrayana is actually what accomplishes tantric practices (that one comes from Tibet of course), etc.

Contact between the modern world and Westerners has been nothing but deleterious for Buddhism. Yes, many more people have made contact with it and benefited from it, but it is how the Dharma is affected in the long run that really counts (surely, this is patently obvious). Modern Westerners being repulsively selfish, conceited, and entitled do not have the faintest notion of this as we see demonstrated here again and again. They work tirelessly for the shortening of the dispensation. There is an old saying about what the road to hell is paved with.

Virgo
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by akuppa »

So having read the whole thing, it seems to me that the more interesting and controversial idea is that prajñāpāpramitā in general has nothing to do with madhyamaka.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

akuppa wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:04 pm So having read the whole thing, it seems to me that the more interesting and controversial idea is that prajñāpāpramitā in general has nothing to do with madhyamaka.
This is also noncontroversial, considering that the PP sutras have both Madhyamaka and Yogacara interpretations.
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by akuppa »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:10 pm
akuppa wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:04 pm So having read the whole thing, it seems to me that the more interesting and controversial idea is that prajñāpāpramitā in general has nothing to do with madhyamaka.
This is also noncontroversial, considering that the PP sutras have both Madhyamaka and Yogacara interpretations.
I presume that the Yogacara interpretation doesn't involve cession of sensory experience though?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

akuppa wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:10 pm
akuppa wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:04 pm So having read the whole thing, it seems to me that the more interesting and controversial idea is that prajñāpāpramitā in general has nothing to do with madhyamaka.
This is also noncontroversial, considering that the PP sutras have both Madhyamaka and Yogacara interpretations.
I presume that the Yogacara interpretation doesn't involve cession of sensory experience though?
It also involves cessation of sensory experience.
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by tingdzin »

Malcolm's says about two of Attwood's points (Heart Sutra probably being a back-translation, and prajnaparamita not being inseparably wedded to madhyamika) that they are non-controversial, which they should be, but in point of fact a very large number of academics still denies or ignores them.
Some of the reactions here show that what should be taken for granted by now is still surprising or unacceptable to both them and some lay Buddhists.

I am with Keith in thinking it doesn't make any difference where the Heart Sutra was composed, but there is an entire edifice built on "all authentic Buddhism came from India", which had and has supporters in both China and Tibet, and to which challenges are either ignored or suppressed. The historical reasons for that are tied into motivations of authenticity and so power politics, so it's not always a trivial question. Attwood is just frustrated by that, I think.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:41 am
I am with Keith in thinking it doesn't make any difference where the Heart Sutra was composed, but there is an entire edifice built on "all authentic Buddhism came from India", which had and has supporters in both China and Tibet, and to which challenges are either ignored or suppressed.
All authentic Buddhism is demonstrably rooted in India, this is also noncontroversial, Osborne’s paper shows admirably how the Heart Sutra is rooted in Indic sources, despite on ostensible “Chinese” origin.
The historical reasons for that are tied into motivations of authenticity and so power politics, so it's not always a trivial question.


I can understand this point, but this isn’t about Dharma. Atwood is playing the same power/authenticity game, in reality, but with far less sincerity.
Attwood is just frustrated by that, I think.
All the guy has ever done Is just ride on the work of others, kind of like a lamprey. He hasn’t done a bit of original work in his life, nor a translation of any significance at all.
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by tingdzin »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:10 am All authentic Buddhism is demonstrably rooted in India,
This is almost a tautology; since Buddha was born there, almost anything in the Buddhist tradition ultimately goes back to India..

Would you not consider the Huayan philosophers real Buddhists, since they expressed themselves in language which is neither Indic nor easily back-translated into Indic, and their ideas are completely new to the Buddhist tradition?

Or Dzogchen man ngag scriptures, which clearly contain language which cannot be back-translated?

Or Dogen's work?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:12 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:10 am All authentic Buddhism is demonstrably rooted in India,
This is almost a tautology; since Buddha was born there, almost anything in the Buddhist tradition ultimately goes back to India..

Would you not consider the Huayan philosophers real Buddhists, since they expressed themselves in language which is neither Indic nor easily back-translated into Indic, and their ideas are completely new to the Buddhist tradition?

Or Dzogchen man ngag scriptures, which clearly contain language which cannot be back-translated?

Or Dogen's work?
All of their ideas can be reasonably predicated on Indic sources.
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by tingdzin »

Then, as I said, it's a tautology.
akuppa
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:20 am

Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness

Post by akuppa »

Does Indic even matter? Academics probably paint a more complicated picture of the history of Buddhism in India anyway. Its not as if Indic can be used as shorthand for "coming from the historical Buddha" anymore (from an academic pov).
Post Reply

Return to “Academic Discussion”