How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

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Nalanda
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How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Nalanda »

I am under the impression that when someone attains Buddhahood, after their parinirvana, their nirmanakaya form is no more. Meaning they appear to have ended that career. Does that mean that that this Buddha becomes, transforms, or even "unites" with the Sambhokagaya form?

If my premises are wrong, I would like to offering a different way of asking. How did Bhaisajyaguru and Amitabha become Sambhogakaya in their forms? With Bhaisajyaguru for instance, there is a narrative that he attained Buddhahood, suggesting a time when he was not, and then he became a Buddha (sambhogakaya) of the Pure Land Vaiḍūryanirbhāsa.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Kai lord »

Nirmanakaya represents Buddha's great compassion, so its never going to cease. Its not going to merge with Sambhogakaya though they are inseparable from the beginning.

Mahasattvas already have Sambhogakaya of their own though not as in perfect purity state with all the five certainties as with Buddhas.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Nalanda »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:33 pm Nirmanakaya represents Buddha's great compassion, so its never going to cease. Its not going to merge with Sambhogakaya though they are inseparable from the beginning.

Mahasattvas already have Sambhogakaya of their own though not as in perfect purity state with all the five certainties as with Buddhas.
Thanks so where is Sakyamuni Nirmanakaya right now according to our way of explaining things? or does the basic vehicle way apply? (Sakyamuni is neither not existing nor eternally existing)

Where / who is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni? (Locana?)
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Varis »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:54 pm Thanks so where is Sakyamuni Nirmanakaya right now according to our way of explaining things?
In the form of relics.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Aryjna »

In my understanding, Buddhas always have nirmanakaya, as that is who they are in a sense. Dharmakaya and sambhogakaya are generic characteristics, not something they really have or become. Also, there could be no dharmakaya without nirmanakaya and vice versa, given that the kayas are inseparable anyway.

This is different from a particular "supreme nirmanakaya" manifestation, which I suppose ends eventually.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Kai lord »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:54 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:33 pm Nirmanakaya represents Buddha's great compassion, so its never going to cease. Its not going to merge with Sambhogakaya though they are inseparable from the beginning.

Mahasattvas already have Sambhogakaya of their own though not as in perfect purity state with all the five certainties as with Buddhas.
Thanks so where is Sakyamuni Nirmanakaya right now according to our way of explaining things? or does the basic vehicle way apply? (Sakyamuni is neither not existing nor eternally existing)

Where / who is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni? (Locana?)
According to the flower garland sutra, Vairocana is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni. Sakyamuni was one of many emanations from Vairocana and since His compassion never ceases, He never stops emanating.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Nalanda »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:02 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:54 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:33 pm Nirmanakaya represents Buddha's great compassion, so its never going to cease. Its not going to merge with Sambhogakaya though they are inseparable from the beginning.

Mahasattvas already have Sambhogakaya of their own though not as in perfect purity state with all the five certainties as with Buddhas.
Thanks so where is Sakyamuni Nirmanakaya right now according to our way of explaining things? or does the basic vehicle way apply? (Sakyamuni is neither not existing nor eternally existing)

Where / who is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni? (Locana?)
According to the flower garland sutra, Vairocana is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni. Sakyamuni was one of many emanations from Vairocana and since His compassion never ceases, He never stops emanating.
I see. Isn't Vairocana a Dhammakaya though?
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by MaitreyaBuddha »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 12:50 pm I am under the impression that when someone attains Buddhahood, after their parinirvana, their nirmanakaya form is no more. Meaning they appear to have ended that career. Does that mean that that this Buddha becomes, transforms, or even "unites" with the Sambhokagaya form?

If my premises are wrong, I would like to offering a different way of asking. How did Bhaisajyaguru and Amitabha become Sambhogakaya in their forms? With Bhaisajyaguru for instance, there is a narrative that he attained Buddhahood, suggesting a time when he was not, and then he became a Buddha (sambhogakaya) of the Pure Land Vaiḍūryanirbhāsa.
Two points:

The nirmanakaya, being the enjoyment body, simply dissolves - the sambhogakaya is just a natural consequence of the change erroneously called 'death'.

The sambhogakaya, being 'spiritual' or 'astral' in nature; is much more elusive for an embodied person to perceive, but this can sometimes happen.

That's all!
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Kai lord »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:22 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:02 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:54 pm

Thanks so where is Sakyamuni Nirmanakaya right now according to our way of explaining things? or does the basic vehicle way apply? (Sakyamuni is neither not existing nor eternally existing)

Where / who is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni? (Locana?)
According to the flower garland sutra, Vairocana is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni. Sakyamuni was one of many emanations from Vairocana and since His compassion never ceases, He never stops emanating.
I see. Isn't Vairocana a Dhammakaya though?
In Shingon.

In the Father tantras, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Aryjna »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:19 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:22 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:02 pm

According to the flower garland sutra, Vairocana is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni. Sakyamuni was one of many emanations from Vairocana and since His compassion never ceases, He never stops emanating.
I see. Isn't Vairocana a Dhammakaya though?
In Shingon.

In the Father tantras, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya.
But this is just a presentation where a particular form symbolizes the dharmakaya, another the sambhogakaya, etc. It is not that one is actually dharmakaya, another sambhogakaya, and another nirmanakaya.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Kai lord »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:22 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:19 pm
Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:22 pm

I see. Isn't Vairocana a Dhammakaya though?
In Shingon.

In the Father tantras, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya.
But this is just a presentation where a particular form symbolizes the dharmakaya, another the sambhogakaya, etc. It is not that one is actually dharmakaya, another sambhogakaya, and another nirmanakaya.
Well, according to the Nyingma:

dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Adi Buddha Samantabhadra;
sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara
nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 6 lords of the buddha-families (Amitabha/Vajrasattva, etc)

dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara
sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso
Nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha

dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha
sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig
nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche.

:tongue: :tongue:

Of course, they are not doing that just for fun. Certain practices do utilize and integrate the concepts of Trikaya in Buddha forms directly,
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Aryjna »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:27 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:22 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:19 pm

In Shingon.

In the Father tantras, Vajradhara is the Dharmakaya.
But this is just a presentation where a particular form symbolizes the dharmakaya, another the sambhogakaya, etc. It is not that one is actually dharmakaya, another sambhogakaya, and another nirmanakaya.
Well, according to the Nyingma:

dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Adi Buddha Samantabhadra;
sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara
nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 6 lords of the buddha-families (Amitabha/Vajrasattva, etc)

dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara
sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso
Nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha

dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha
sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig
nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche.

:tongue: :tongue:

Of course, they are not doing that just for fun. Certain practices do utilize and integrate the concepts of Trikaya in Buddha forms directly,
Yes, they represent different kayas in that system, but each of them is not really one of the three kayas, assuming they are anything more than symbols/different names for emptiness, etc.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Kai lord »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:34 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:27 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:22 pm
But this is just a presentation where a particular form symbolizes the dharmakaya, another the sambhogakaya, etc. It is not that one is actually dharmakaya, another sambhogakaya, and another nirmanakaya.
Well, according to the Nyingma:

dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Adi Buddha Samantabhadra;
sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara
nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 6 lords of the buddha-families (Amitabha/Vajrasattva, etc)

dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara
sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso
Nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha

dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha
sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig
nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche.

:tongue: :tongue:

Of course, they are not doing that just for fun. Certain practices do utilize and integrate the concepts of Trikaya in Buddha forms directly,
Yes, they represent different kayas in that system, but each of them is not really one of the three kayas, assuming they are anything more than symbols/different names for emptiness, etc.
If you think so, they are also important lineage holders for many practices. For example, Samantabhadra is, in fact, the adi guru and first sahajiya.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Aryjna »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:38 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:34 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:27 pm

Well, according to the Nyingma:

dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Adi Buddha Samantabhadra;
sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara
nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 6 lords of the buddha-families (Amitabha/Vajrasattva, etc)

dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara
sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso
Nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha

dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha
sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig
nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche.

:tongue: :tongue:

Of course, they are not doing that just for fun. Certain practices do utilize and integrate the concepts of Trikaya in Buddha forms directly,
Yes, they represent different kayas in that system, but each of them is not really one of the three kayas, assuming they are anything more than symbols/different names for emptiness, etc.
If you think so, they are also important lineage holders for many practices. For example, Samantabhadra is, in fact, the adi guru and first sahajiya.
How can a buddha be just one of three kayas when the three are inseparable? Of course, it is not wrong to say that they are in the context of this kind of presentations that are used for practice etc., but the OP's question was not in this context as far as I can tell.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Kai lord »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:54 pm How can a buddha be just one of three kayas when the three are inseparable?
Don't see a problem. Sakyamuni being the human form of Vairocana, does not contradict the inseparability.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Aryjna »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:05 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:54 pm How can a buddha be just one of three kayas when the three are inseparable?
Don't see a problem. Sakyamuni being the human form of Vairocana, does not contradict the inseparability.
Symbolism and talking about specific buddhas becoming sambhogakaya, dharmakaya, etc. are different things. What I'm saying is that there is no standalone dharmakaya and dharmakaya has no form. So a blue form with a name cannot be the dharmakaya, other than when that name and form are used as a symbol for the dharmakaya.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Kai lord »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:09 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:05 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:54 pm How can a buddha be just one of three kayas when the three are inseparable?
Don't see a problem. Sakyamuni being the human form of Vairocana, does not contradict the inseparability.
Symbolism and talking about specific buddhas becoming sambhogakaya, dharmakaya, etc. are different things. What I'm saying is that there is no standalone dharmakaya and dharmakaya has no form. So a blue form with a name cannot be the dharmakaya, other than when that name and form are used as a symbol for the dharmakaya.
Like I already said, nothing wrong with thinking that way but when explaining the mind to mind transmission for the teaching of certain lineages, it makes sense to show Dharmakaya in the form of Samantabhadra or Amitabha as the paramount guru.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Aryjna »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:23 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:09 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:05 pm

Don't see a problem. Sakyamuni being the human form of Vairocana, does not contradict the inseparability.
Symbolism and talking about specific buddhas becoming sambhogakaya, dharmakaya, etc. are different things. What I'm saying is that there is no standalone dharmakaya and dharmakaya has no form. So a blue form with a name cannot be the dharmakaya, other than when that name and form are used as a symbol for the dharmakaya.
Like I already said, nothing wrong with thinking that way but when explaining the mind to mind transmission for the teaching of certain lineages, it makes sense to show Dharmakaya in the form Samantabhadra and Amitabha as the paramount guru.
Sure, but I think that it should be clarified that the context is different to what is asked in the OP, so that there is no confusion:
Does that mean that that this Buddha becomes, transforms, or even "unites" with the Sambhokagaya form?
How did Bhaisajyaguru and Amitabha become Sambhogakaya in their forms? With Bhaisajyaguru for instance, there is a narrative that he attained Buddhahood, suggesting a time when he was not, and then he became a Buddha (sambhogakaya) of the Pure Land Vaiḍūryanirbhāsa.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by Aemilius »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:54 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:33 pm Nirmanakaya represents Buddha's great compassion, so its never going to cease. Its not going to merge with Sambhogakaya though they are inseparable from the beginning.

Mahasattvas already have Sambhogakaya of their own though not as in perfect purity state with all the five certainties as with Buddhas.
Thanks so where is Sakyamuni Nirmanakaya right now according to our way of explaining things? or does the basic vehicle way apply? (Sakyamuni is neither not existing nor eternally existing)

Where / who is the Sambhogakaya of Sakyamuni? (Locana?)
According to the Lotus sutra Shakyamuni's parinirvana was a skilful means with the purpose of instructing his disciples. In reality he is still existing and he manisfests in innumerable forms in the worlds of the ten directions. See the Chapter 16. of Lotus sutra:

"This said, the Lord spoke to those Bodhisattvas Mahâsattvas as follows: I announce to you, young men of good family, I declare to you: However numerous be those worlds where that man deposits those atoms of dust and where he does not, there are not, young men of good family, in all those hundred thousands of myriads of kolis of worlds so many dust atoms as there are hundred thousands of myriads of kotis of Æons since I have arrived at supreme, perfect enlightenment. From the moment, young men of good family, when I began preaching the law to creatures in this Saha-world and in hundred thousands of myriads of kotis of other worlds, and (when) the other Tathâgatas, Arhats, &c., such as the Tathâgata Dîpankara and the rest whom I have mentioned in the lapse of time (preached), (from that moment) have I, young men of good family, for the complete Nirvâna of those Tathâgatas, &c., created all that with the express view to skilfully preach the law. Again, young men of good family, the Tathâgata, considering the different degrees of faculty and strength of succeeding generations, reveals at each (generation) his own name, reveals a state in which Nirvâna has not yet been reached, and in different ways he satisfies the wants of (different) creatures through various Dharmaparyâyas . This being the case, young men of good family, the Tathâgata declares to the creatures, whose dispositions are so various and who possess so few roots of goodness, so many evil propensities: I am young of age, monks; having left my father's home, monks, I have lately arrived at supreme, perfect enlightenment. When, however, the Tathâgata, who so long ago arrived at perfect enlightenment, declares himself to have but lately arrived at perfect enlightenment, he does so in order to lead creatures to full ripeness and make them go in. Therefore have these Dharmaparyâyas been revealed; and it is for the education of creatures, young men of good family, that the Tathâgata has revealed all Dharmaparyâyas. And, young men of good family, the word that the Tathâgata delivers on behalf of the education of creatures, either under his own appearance or under another's, either on his own authority or under the mask of another, all that the Tathâgata declares, all those Dharmaparyâyas spoken by the Tathâgata are true. There can be no question of untruth from the part of the Tathâgata in this respect. For the Tathâgata sees the triple world as it really is: it is not born, it dies not; it is not conceived, it springs not into existence; it moves not in a whirl, it becomes not extinct; it is not real, nor unreal; it is not existing, nor non-existing; it is not such, nor otherwise, nor false. The Tathâgata sees the triple world, not as the ignorant, common people, he seeing things always present to him; indeed, to the Tathâgata, in his position, no laws are concealed. In that respect any word that the Tathâgata speaks is true, not false. But in order to produce the roots of goodness in the creatures, who follow different pursuits and behave according to different notions, he reveals various Dharmaparyâyas with various fundamental principles. The Tathâgata then, young men of good family, does what he has to do. The Tathâgata who so long ago was perfectly enlightened is unlimited in the duration of his life, he is everlasting. Without being extinct, the Tathâgata makes a show of extinction, on behalf of those who have to be educated. And even now, young gentlemen of good family, I have not accomplished my ancient Bodhisattvacourse, and the measure of my lifetime is not full. Nay, young men of good family, I shall yet have twice as many hundred thousand myriads of kotis of Æons before the measure of my lifetime be full. I announce final extinction, young men of good family, though myself I do not become finally extinct. For in this way, young men of good family, I bring (all) creatures to maturity, lest creatures in whom goodness is not firmly rooted, who are unholy, miserable, eager of sensual pleasures, blind and obscured by the film of wrong views, should, by too often seeing me, take to thinking: 'The Tathâgata is staying' and fancy that all is a child's play; (lest they) by thinking 'we are near that Tathâgata' should fail to exert themselves in order to escape the triple world and not conceive how precious the Tathâgata is. Hence, young men of good family, the Tathdgata skilfully utters. these words: The apparition of the Tathâgatas, monks, is precious (and rare). For in the course of many hundred thousand myriads of kotis of Æons creatures may happen to see a Tathâgata or not to see him,. Therefore and upon that ground, young men of good family, I say: The apparition of the Tathâgatas, monks, is precious (and rare). By being more and more convinced of the apparition of the Tathâgatas being precious (or rare) they will feel surprised and sorry, and whilst not seeing the Tathâgata they will get a longing to see him. The good roots developing from their earnest thought relating to the Tathâgata will lastingly tend to their weal, benefit, and happiness; in consideration of which the Tathâgata announces final extinction, though he himself does not become finally extinct, on behalf of the creatures who have to be educated. Such, young men of good family, is the Tathâgata's manner of teaching; when the Tathâgata speaks in this way, there is from his part no falsehood."
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
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Re: How does a Buddha become a Sambhogakaya?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 12:50 pm I am under the impression that when someone attains Buddhahood, after their parinirvana, their nirmanakaya form is no more. Meaning they appear to have ended that career.
The question cannot be answered as stated.
The premise is faulty.
One needs to begin by asking what “their own” form is.
Whose form is it?
If you say “this is my nirmanakaya form” then you’re ascribing a “me” to the appearance of whatever, physical appearance, mental continuum, etc.

Same with a Buddha. The three kayas are simply three aspects of unobstructed awareness. We say that a Buddha “has” these but that’s a phrasing of convenience.

Likewise, we can say “when one attains buddhahood” referring to a general understanding, but when applied to this depth of inquiry, such terminology is meaningless, because ultimately one doesn’t attain buddhahood. It’s when the “one” is no longer grasped to, then buddhahood occurs.

The various Buddha ‘kayas’ arise in accordance with the needs of sentient beings. It’s not as though one ends and another begins.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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