Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

handlebarchair
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Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by handlebarchair »

Hi everyone, two questions for you if this is the appropriate subforum for them:

1) Is there a historical precedent for Thogal practices within Indian Vajrayana tantras? It seems to be to possibly be a uniquely Tibetan practice, but I'm also not entirely familiar with the literature. I've heard that Thogal may be uniquely Tibetan and rooted in more traditional Tibetan shamanic/sorcery practices. Is there any historical validity to this? (this is not meant to disparage the practice - in my mind such a history could be a positive thing).

2) On top of its contributions to developing realization, does such a practice of eliciting visions and then realizing their emptiness have a relationship to the development of siddhis? Despite siddhis being clearly indicated as a fruit of practice, not much has been discussed, that I'm aware of, of the origin or cause of the siddhis. I have a suspicion that their origin is related to dreaming/visionary practices (while retaining mindfulness of non-dual awareness and emptiness even in such states so as to not get swept into them as if real in the way that follows of visionary/mythological religions do) and am curious if there is any context in the Tibetan or Indian Buddhist tantras for this.
amanitamusc
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by amanitamusc »

Welome to Dharma Wheel.
Natan
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Natan »

handlebarchair wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:55 pm Hi everyone, two questions for you if this is the appropriate subforum for them:

1) Is there a historical precedent for Thogal practices within Indian Vajrayana tantras? It seems to be to possibly be a uniquely Tibetan practice, but I'm also not entirely familiar with the literature. I've heard that Thogal may be uniquely Tibetan and rooted in more traditional Tibetan shamanic/sorcery practices. Is there any historical validity to this? (this is not meant to disparage the practice - in my mind such a history could be a positive thing).

2) On top of its contributions to developing realization, does such a practice of eliciting visions and then realizing their emptiness have a relationship to the development of siddhis? Despite siddhis being clearly indicated as a fruit of practice, not much has been discussed, that I'm aware of, of the origin or cause of the siddhis. I have a suspicion that their origin is related to dreaming/visionary practices (while retaining mindfulness of non-dual awareness and emptiness even in such states so as to not get swept into them as if real in the way that follows of visionary/mythological religions do) and am curious if there is any context in the Tibetan or Indian Buddhist tantras for this.
The use of entoptic visions goes back to the Pali suttas where Buddha taught meditation on nimitta aka colored visual signs. The Theravada develop this in the Visudimagga, their meditation manual a lot. There are also meditations on elements using artifact in the visual field after staring at objects. This is done to gain siddhis to master elements. But these are not Togal, but like proto Togal.

The Kalachakra tantra makes a lot of use of visions that are shared by early stages of togal practice, but then takes the matter in a different direction.

Togal proper is said to come from India, although texts are hard to come by. There is some mention in the Shiva Sutras of some Togal like method, though it's vague. I have heard of Indian yogis practicing something like it in the mountains They are not into writing. But they interact with Tibetans up there.

What we have in the Dzogchen context of four visions is very unique in terms of details taught. Though it's taught Dzogchen tantras and such all came from Vimalamitra and Padmasambhava by way of Sri Singha, Jnanasutra, Manjushrimitra and Garab Dorje who were "Indians" there are no Indian language evidences, except for the Guhyagarbha Tantra, which is said to be fundamental to the rest. One can surmise if Guhyagarbha Tantra teaching came from India-Nepal area then the pith instructions and practice explanations did too. In fact, it's all very consistent in view, meditation, action and fruit.

The visions are taught to express the Buddhanature completely and so indeed as one moves into latter stages siddhis are expressed as well.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by jet.urgyen »

handlebarchair wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:55 pm Hi everyone, two questions for you if this is the appropriate subforum for them:

1) Is there a historical precedent for Thogal practices within Indian Vajrayana tantras? It seems to be to possibly be a uniquely Tibetan practice, but I'm also not entirely familiar with the literature. I've heard that Thogal may be uniquely Tibetan and rooted in more traditional Tibetan shamanic/sorcery practices. Is there any historical validity to this? (this is not meant to disparage the practice - in my mind such a history could be a positive thing).

2) On top of its contributions to developing realization, does such a practice of eliciting visions and then realizing their emptiness have a relationship to the development of siddhis? Despite siddhis being clearly indicated as a fruit of practice, not much has been discussed, that I'm aware of, of the origin or cause of the siddhis. I have a suspicion that their origin is related to dreaming/visionary practices (while retaining mindfulness of non-dual awareness and emptiness even in such states so as to not get swept into them as if real in the way that follows of visionary/mythological religions do) and am curious if there is any context in the Tibetan or Indian Buddhist tantras for this.
1) don't know. In this realm i think yes, "indian" kingdoms are the places where this where brought to human realm.

2) such exercise woul posibly lead to the deva realm, not necessarily to a kind of siddhi.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by pemachophel »

Siddhis associated with thogal come with the third vision.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Well, the great Indian masters Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are documented as having brought the togal teachings to Tibet. It came firmly from within the Indian Buddhist milieu, though on the down low.

As for the practice, it is none other than the unfolding of one’s own sambhogakaya dimension. It is encountering and mastering the bardo without having to die first—or potentially at all. If you want to really learn about this practice it would be infinitely better to hear it from an authentic source firsthand rather than form a lot of concepts about it. If you learn this way, you’ll see that the explanation of how siddhi come about through the practice is quite explicitly explained, and it has nothing to do with dreams. As an aside, the practice of the night, in which one tries to fall asleep while in the state of trekchöd, is a crucially important part of the Dzogchen path.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
PeterC
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by PeterC »

Why are we discussing thogal practice in a public forum?
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by tingdzin »

PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:17 pm Why are we discussing thogal practice in a public forum?
In case you hadn't noticed, this has unfortunately been going on for quite a while. The first one to do it in a very detailed and specific way was probably David Germano, in a couple of academic articles. Frank Tiso (an outsider) has pointed out the irony in the fact that some of the practices that were the most secret in Tibet are now bandied about by anyone who has a computer.
Pema Rigdzin wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:48 am It came firmly from within the Indian Buddhist milieu, though on the down low.
This is just an assertion, with no hard historical evidence to back it up.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Archie2009 »

tingdzin wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:28 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:17 pm Why are we discussing thogal practice in a public forum?
In case you hadn't noticed, this has unfortunately been going on for quite a while. The first one to do it in a very detailed and specific way was probably David Germano, in a couple of academic articles. Frank Tiso (an outsider) has pointed out the irony in the fact that some of the practices that were the most secret in Tibet are now bandied about by anyone who has a computer.
In case you hadn't realized, that does not mean practitioners should join Germano and company in this 'conversation' and indulge any newcomer on their first post.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Domingo »

tingdzin wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:28 am this has unfortunately been going on for quite a while.
Why is this unfortunate? There was a time when Dzogchen in general was kept very secret. Is it unfortunate that this has changed now? The Nyingmapas still keep Tögal quite secret, the Bönpos teach it to virtually everyone who wants to listen. Is this unfortunate?
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Dechen Norbu »

PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:17 pm Why are we discussing thogal practice in a public forum?
We could ask the same about Vajrayana in general.

That said, the cat is out of the bag.

Once that happens, maybe the best thing to do is explaining it as carefully as possible, including the obstacles that its premature and inorrect practice may create, so that less people are harmed when being exposed to this kind of knowledge without qualified guidance.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Domingo wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:04 am The Nyingmapas still keep Tögal quite secret, the Bönpos teach it to virtually everyone who wants to listen. Is this unfortunate?
ChNN thought it was very unfortunate that the Bonpos were so open with theses teachings because misunderstanding them blocks one’s realization.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:37 pm
Domingo wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:04 am The Nyingmapas still keep Tögal quite secret, the Bönpos teach it to virtually everyone who wants to listen. Is this unfortunate?
ChNN thought it was very unfortunate that the Bonpos were so open with theses teachings because misunderstanding them blocks one’s realization.
However, we can't go back in time. The fact is that teachings about Togal are available for anyone who knows how to do a Google search. What other option is there beyond explaining them, as has been happening with Vajrayana for decades? The other option might be letting these people go on with their mistakes, screwing their path in a big way...
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Domingo »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:37 pm
Domingo wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:04 am The Nyingmapas still keep Tögal quite secret, the Bönpos teach it to virtually everyone who wants to listen. Is this unfortunate?
ChNN thought it was very unfortunate that the Bonpos were so open with theses teachings because misunderstanding them blocks one’s realization.
Well, there are high Lamas who have similar ideas about the fact that ChNN taught Dzogchen so openly. So the question arises: Are all these Lamas wrong who criticized ChNN for teaching Dzogchen openly? Or are all Bön Lamas wrong who teach Tögal openly? In the end, if one is serious, one can only follow the advice of one's teacher(s). But then again, one might end up in a conundrum, if one has different root gurus with different perspectives on this topic.
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Domingo wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:37 pm
Domingo wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:04 am The Nyingmapas still keep Tögal quite secret, the Bönpos teach it to virtually everyone who wants to listen. Is this unfortunate?
ChNN thought it was very unfortunate that the Bonpos were so open with theses teachings because misunderstanding them blocks one’s realization.
Well, there are high Lamas who have similar ideas about the fact that ChNN taught Dzogchen so openly. So the question arises: Are all these Lamas wrong who criticized ChNN for teaching Dzogchen openly? Or are all Bön Lamas wrong who teach Tögal openly? In the end, if one is serious, one can only follow the advice of one's teacher(s). But then again, one might end up in a conundrum, if one has different root gurus with different perspectives on this topic.
There is no problem with _teaching_ thogal. But people can have serious misconceptions if they just randomly open books and think they can just go ahead. This is the issue.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by PeterC »

Dechen Norbu wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:17 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:17 pm Why are we discussing thogal practice in a public forum?
We could ask the same about Vajrayana in general.

That said, the cat is out of the bag.

Once that happens, maybe the best thing to do is explaining it as carefully as possible, including the obstacles that its premature and inorrect practice may create, so that less people are harmed when being exposed to this kind of knowledge without qualified guidance.
The cat is out of the bag. But your last point is important. Thogal is different from other practices in that reading about it before you’ve received and done the practices can actually make it much harder to complete the practices, in a way that’s not the case with other vajrayana/Dzogchen practices. That’s why we really should not encourage public discussion of this topic in particular.

We can’t police others’ behavior, but on this board we can at least try to do our best.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Domingo »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:39 pm There is no problem with _teaching_ thogal. But people can have serious misconceptions if they just randomly open books and think they can just go ahead. This is the issue.
That's certainly true. But then again, one can end up with serious misconceptions after reading any book on Dzogchen, not just teachings on Tögal. That's probably the reason why many Lamas critizise teachers who publish books on Dzogchen for the general public. Anyway, there are probably even thousands of people who participated in Dzogchen seminars and retreats with high Lamas, who came out more confused than they have been before. So from my point of view, this danger is always present, not just regarding Tögal. Or do you think misconceptions on Tögal will block one's realization more than, let's say, the idea that reincarnation is just a myth?
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
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Malcolm
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Domingo wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:12 pm Or do you think misconceptions on Tögal will block one's realization more than, let's say, the idea that reincarnation is just a myth?
I would say they are the in the same league. Equally serious misconceptions for totally different reasons, but they both lead to wrong view.
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Domingo »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:22 pm I would say they are the in the same league. Equally serious misconceptions for totally different reasons, but they both lead to wrong view.
Hence, I'm not sure why it should be more problematic to publish public books with Tögal teachings, than publish books on many other buddhist topics.If one's prone to misconceptions, everything can be the source for serious misconceptions. In fact, my personal opinion is that other Dzogchen topics or Madhyamaka could lead to much more and more severe misconceptions than teachings on Tögal.
གཏད་མེད་བྱུང་རྒྱལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
འཛིན་མེད་རང་གྲོལ་དུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
གུ་ཡངས་བློ་བདེ་རུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
མ་བཅོས་རང་བབས་སུ་ཞོག་ཅིག།
ཨ་ཨ།
Malcolm
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Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Domingo wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:47 pm In fact, my personal opinion is that other Dzogchen topics or Madhyamaka could lead to much more and more severe misconceptions than teachings on Tögal.
I don't agree, from personal experience of dealing with students. With things like Madhyamaka, etc., it is relatively simple to correct someone's intellectual understanding. This is not possible with thogal, etc. When someone misunderstands it, they misunderstand it completely because it is not something intellectual at all.
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