Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana

[fckw]

ChNN thought it was very unfortunate that the Bonpos were so open with theses teachings because misunderstanding them blocks one’s realization.

Well - never having had the opportunity to even hear about them also blocks one's realization. That was the state of things for the last 1000 years or so for 99.999% of humanity.

The question is which option is the worse one.

[Malcolm]

Well - never having had the opportunity to even hear about them also blocks one's realization. That was the state of things for the last 1000 years or so for 99.999% of humanity.

And it still will be for the next 1000 years because there are never very many qualified teachers of Dzogchen around.

[Passing By]

In fact, my personal opinion is that other Dzogchen topics or Madhyamaka could lead to much more and more severe misconceptions than teachings on Tögal.

I don't agree, from personal experience of dealing with students. With things like Madhyamaka, etc., it is relatively simple to correct someone's intellectual understanding. This is not possible with thogal, etc. When someone misunderstands it, they misunderstand it completely because it is not something intellectual at all.

Wouldn't the same apply to trekcho, considering that it's essentially thogal but using all experiences instead of just special visions?

I mean, I've received plenty of thogal teachings from Bon lamas because they don't really separate them from trekcho and unless they were teaching completely wrong...... Nevertheless it seems trekcho is just as easy to misunderstand since it's also experiential

[Malcolm]

it seems trekcho is just as easy to misunderstand since it's also experiential

Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.

[natusake]

it seems trekcho is just as easy to misunderstand since it's also experiential

Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

[Virgo]

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

I think one reason is that ChNN was expert at it. Another important reason is that in our tradition you practice them in that order (if you are going to practice thogal).

Virgo

[Kim O'Hara]

Off-topic posts, some of them very silly, have been removed.


Kim

[tinylocusta]

it seems trekcho is just as easy to misunderstand since it's also experiential

Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

I'm not sure it's interesting - Rinpoche explained it very clearly every time thogal was mentioned, often using the example of experiences one used to have.

[tinylocusta]

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

I think one reason is that ChNN was expert at it. Another important reason is that in our tradition you practice them in that order (if you are going to practice thogal).

Rinpoche was also a very high level expert in Thogal and Yangti in spite of rarely talking about them during retreats. He also had advanced teachings that were meant only for those who have a certain level of realization of these practices.

[Virgo]

Rinpoche was also a very high level expert in Thogal and Yangti in spite of rarely talking about them during retreats. He also had advanced teachings that were meant only for those who have a certain level of realization of these practices.

Indeed.

Virgo

[VajraDude]

Hi everyone, two questions for you if this is the appropriate subforum for them:

1) Is there a historical precedent for Thogal practices within Indian Vajrayana tantras? It seems to be to possibly be a uniquely Tibetan practice, but I'm also not entirely familiar with the literature. I've heard that Thogal may be uniquely Tibetan and rooted in more traditional Tibetan shamanic/sorcery practices. Is there any historical validity to this? (this is not meant to disparage the practice - in my mind such a history could be a positive thing).

2) On top of its contributions to developing realization, does such a practice of eliciting visions and then realizing their emptiness have a relationship to the development of siddhis? Despite siddhis being clearly indicated as a fruit of practice, not much has been discussed, that I'm aware of, of the origin or cause of the siddhis. I have a suspicion that their origin is related to dreaming/visionary practices (while retaining mindfulness of non-dual awareness and emptiness even in such states so as to not get swept into them as if real in the way that follows of visionary/mythological religions do) and am curious if there is any context in the Tibetan or Indian Buddhist tantras for this.

It’s recently been determined that the kalacakra-tantra, which has maha-sandhi-like dark retreat practice and open eyed sitting practice does in fact appear to connected to, like many buddhist tantras, the yamala-s.
Therefore it is possible but not necessarily probable that maha-sandhi texts will be found in the bhairava-tantras and yamala-s
The more common practices found are those of ugra-tara, aka ekajati, which still exist in India, alone with considerable surviving iconography of her.

[stong gzugs]

It’s recently been determined that the kalacakra-tantra, which has maha-sandhi-like dark retreat practice and open eyed sitting practice does in fact appear to connected to, like many buddhist tantras, the yamala-s.

When you say "recently been determined," what source are you referring to? Is there an article or book you have in mind? Thanks!

[Malcolm]

it seems trekcho is just as easy to misunderstand since it's also experiential

Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

Because without being stable in trekcho, practicing thogal can result in dualistic grasping, which will block one's path.

[Sādhaka]

Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

Because without being stable in trekcho, practicing thogal can result in dualistic grasping, which will block one's path.

ChNNR said that it would actually block your path, for this entire lifetime, yea?

The Yongdzin Rinpoche of Yungdrung Bön said that if you see the Visions without a firm Base, then you might as well watch TV, and, that in said case, watching TV would actually be better; although not that you'd necessary be blocked for the entirety of one's current lifetime.

My take-away from all this, is that both statements are not mutually-exclusive; that is that it would depend upon the degree that one has desire, attachment, craving, or clinging to them....

[natusake]

Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

Because without being stable in trekcho, practicing thogal can result in dualistic grasping, which will block one's path.

How can one tell their trekcho is stable enough to begin thogal?

[Sādhaka]

Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

Because without being stable in trekcho, practicing thogal can result in dualistic grasping, which will block one's path.

How can one tell their trekcho is stable enough to begin thogal?

In ChNN's case, he didn't start until his Guru visited him in a dream and told him to. How's that for a standard

[Sādhaka]

Yet also, dreams can also be provocations,
from beings of them 8 classes; therefore, don't have too much trust in "dreams".

To be honest, most dreams I've had have seemed profound when I'd first woken up from them; yet in retrospect, were probably nonsensical, and most likely provocations....

[Sādhaka]

Not to slight the Dharmaraja^; I'm just speaking of my own 'experience'.

Also, he himself has said that dreams can appear as Empowerments, etc.; but are also often mere provocations....

[Malcolm]

ChNNR said that it would actually block your path, for this entire lifetime, yea?

He said that it could.

[stoneinfocus]

Yet also, dreams can also be provocations,
from beings of them 8 classes; therefore, don't have too much trust in "dreams".

To be honest, most dreams I've had have seemed profound when I'd first woken up from them; yet in retrospect, were probably nonsensical, and most likely provocations....

For the average person, sure.

For a realized dream yoga expert like Norbu Rinpoche, it's a different story.