Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
oaktree
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:58 pm

Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by oaktree »

My Seon nun who has been a nun for 20 or so years said that if one kills his mother or kills his father, or sheds the blood of the Buddha, one goes to hell forever.

I said to her that I heard that there is no eternal hell in Buddhism and that even if someone goes to hell for a very long time, they will eventually leave. She responded by saying that sometimes sutras disagree with each other.

I have also found this http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... itle=Avici , which to me seems to state similar things

Is the existence of eternal hell a subject of debate between Buddhist schools and scriptures?
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

That article literally says it’s not eternal, just really long. Maybe it’s just a shorthand way of saying really long.

Anyway, by definition a permanent form of samsaric existence is not possible, so that person is simply incorrect, to the best of my understanding.

To believe in such a thing you have to ignore or break some foundational ideas about Buddhism- e.g. the impermanence of samsaric states.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9443
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

A bad toothache lasts forever, until fixed.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Aryjna »

oaktree wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:25 pm My Seon nun who has been a nun for 20 or so years said that if one kills his mother or kills his father, or sheds the blood of the Buddha, one goes to hell forever.

I said to her that I heard that there is no eternal hell in Buddhism and that even if someone goes to hell for a very long time, they will eventually leave. She responded by saying that sometimes sutras disagree with each other.

I have also found this http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... itle=Avici , which to me seems to state similar things

Is the existence of eternal hell a subject of debate between Buddhist schools and scriptures?
According to "Words of my perfect teacher" the lifespan of someone born in Avici is one intermediate kalpa. I think that is around one fourth of a cycle of creation and destruction of a universe which, if I'm not mistaken (judging by the shortest lifespans described for the lesser hells) is more than many sextillions of human years. So one can say it is an eternity from a human point of view. But it is not really eternal.
oaktree
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:58 pm

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by oaktree »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:50 pm A bad toothache lasts forever, until fixed.
you mean its sort of a hyperbole?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Malcolm »

oaktree wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:25 pm My Seon nun who has been a nun for 20 or so years said that if one kills his mother or kills his father, or sheds the blood of the Buddha, one goes to hell forever.
No, just immediately upon dying. But hell isn't a real place. Hell is other people, as someone once quipped.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Nalanda »

oaktree wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:25 pm My Seon nun who has been a nun for 20 or so years said that if one kills his mother or kills his father, or sheds the blood of the Buddha, one goes to hell forever.

I said to her that I heard that there is no eternal hell in Buddhism and that even if someone goes to hell for a very long time, they will eventually leave. She responded by saying that sometimes sutras disagree with each other.

I have also found this http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... itle=Avici , which to me seems to state similar things

Is the existence of eternal hell a subject of debate between Buddhist schools and scriptures?

What she meant I think is almost forever. These are grave offenses. It takes as long as forever.

But it can't be truly forever because nothing is eternal.

So, don't kill a Buddha.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

User avatar
KathyLauren
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm
Location: East Coast of Canada
Contact:

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by KathyLauren »

It is not forever. It just seems like forever when you are there. :tongue:

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Archie2009
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Archie2009 »

KathyLauren wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:40 pm It is not forever. It just seems like forever when you are there. :tongue:

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Like Christmas with the whole family including your drunken, loose-lipped uncle. ;)
Inedible
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun May 02, 2021 6:00 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Inedible »

The Mahayana is full of tricks and tips you can apply. Even if you kill your parents. It is the Hinayana where you are in serious trouble. Buddha stopped Angulimala because he was thinking of killing his mother to complete the finger necklace and that was crossing the line. So you have Kshitigarbha Bodhisattva who is famous for rescuing people from Hell and Sutras like the Mahaparinirvana. The Surangama might have been another. More is better than less. so try the 100 syllable mantra of Vajrasattva for purification. I think a cycle of 100,000 repetitions is enough per act of the five actions of immediate result. Results may vary and everyone has an opinion. I'll be shocked if no one tells you I'm dead wrong. For myself, I bought two statues of Kshitigarbha and I wear a pendant of the Surangama Mantra. I have a printout of the long mantra in Sanskrit. I'm thinking of memorizing it next year. I have listened to recordings and it can take almost 20 minutes to recite, which is why I haven't tried to learn it yet. But I did read that if all you do is memorize this mantra then your human life has been spent well. And the mantra, including the shorter heart mantra, is for building Samadhi power. I have read conflicting opinions about Pure Land Buddhism centered around Amitabha Buddha with regard to the five actions.
anagarika
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:45 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by anagarika »

With all due respect to anyone in the robes, if a monastic seriously holds the view that a conditioned state of existence, be it a heaven or a hell, can be permanent, I would seriously question their understanding of the most elementary principles of Buddhadharma.
Nalanda
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Nalanda »

anagarika wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:13 am With all due respect to anyone in the robes, if a monastic seriously holds the view that a conditioned state of existence, be it a heaven or a hell, can be permanent, I would seriously question their understanding of the most elementary principles of Buddhadharma.
I would give this one a benefit of a doubt as they are not here to give their side of the story. For all we know, the nun might have said "Hell is not eternal except for lawyers."
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

Kai lord
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 2:38 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by Kai lord »

oaktree wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:25 pm Is the existence of eternal hell a subject of debate between Buddhist schools and scriptures?
Ironically, at the end of the Mahakalpha, even hell got consumed and destroyed by a great fire far hotter than the great hellish flames in avici.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9443
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

oaktree wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:25 pm Is the existence of eternal hell a subject of debate between Buddhist schools and scriptures?
Most of what people say about karma is nonsense.
It’s not so much that:
1.there are hell realms (although that’s the experience)
And that
2. they are eternal.

It’s the sentient being who experiences rebirth. I think the point is, that throughout multiple future lifetimes, one will keep taking rebirth as a
hell-experiencing being.

But that could happen anywhere. It’s like with hungry ghosts who are parched with thirst. If you give one a cup of cool water, they will experience it as pus or urine or whatever. They don’t just think it is that. It’s not just a psychological state of mind. It’s their reality. It will actually appear as such to them, because of their karma.

Likewise, the enjoyments that you and I may experience will seem like burning knives and metal-teeth dogs to a hell being.

I think it would be more accurate in a way, to refer to beings as ‘hell-experiencers’ or ‘animal experiencers’ or whatever, just as we are ‘human-experiencers’, because the realms are created by the being. It’s not as though there are experience-locations already set up, waiting for visitors, like different theme-areas of an amusement park.
But, I’m not going to try and change how the sutras are written!

Personally, I think the way the Buddha described the realms during that time period in India was probably fashioned to resemble the caste system, to make it understandable. To ge born into a certain caste is an absolute reality for millions of Hindus, just as being born in America is my reality, even though technically, countries are totally made up and ultimately don’t exist outside of our believing that they do.
But that’s a different topic.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
genkaku.linrx
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:07 pm

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by genkaku.linrx »

I found this thread informative and inspiring for a Christmas Day, thank you good people for sharing. :twothumbsup:
anagarika
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:45 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:35 pm
Most of what people say about karma is nonsense.
Painfully true. :good:
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:35 pm
I think it would be more accurate in a way, to refer to beings as ‘hell-experiencers’ or ‘animal experiencers’ or whatever, just as we are ‘human-experiencers’, because the realms are created by the being. It’s not as though there are experience-locations already set up, waiting for visitors, like different theme-areas of an amusement park.
But, I’m not going to try and change how the sutras are written!
Yes, the problem seems to be that many Buddhists implicitly still operate within the framework of a transmigrating soul (unfortunately, this tendency is supported by many prominent teachers who explain the teachings using cryptoeternalist language). They have the idea that when this human life is over, the mind/soul/self/whatever throws this body away like a worn clothes and then flies over to a new body in some other "objective" realm.

You are right to point out that the Buddha actually taught that it is only meaningful to talk about the world as an experience. If we take, for instance, the human and animal "realms" here on Earth - what is it that separates them from each other? Is there a physical boundary? No, not at all - it´s just that the subjective experience of the same cluster of matter is completely different for different beings. The "world" of an earthworm is different from mine, although we may be physically a few centimeters from each other. The same goes for humans - the world of an experienced meditator will be completely different from the world of a homeless shooting up heroin on the streets.

My understanding is that it is much more helpful to think of the world as appearing in the mind, not the other way round. By that I am not advocating something like subjective idealism. I don´t mean to say that the matter actually emanates from the mind - rather it is the the volitional impulse originating from ignorance which propels the mind to mingle with matter and give rise to certain experience (avijja pacaya sankhara, sankhara pacaya vinnana - with ignorance as a condition, volitional formations arise, with volitional formations as a condition, consciousness aka conscious experience arises).

Also, it should be acknowledged that this process is extremely complex and NOT explained in detail in the suttas. Remember the parable of handful of leaves (this much tathagata teaches, this much he has realised - the latter being unfathomably greater). Many Buddhists are extremely naive to think they can reconstruct the Tathagata´s understanding of the way the universe works by reading a few suttas in translation. Much more humility and open mind is needed to penetrate these deep teachings.
anagarika
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:45 am

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by anagarika »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 11:36 am
I would give this one a benefit of a doubt as they are not here to give their side of the story. For all we know, the nun might have said "Hell is not eternal except for lawyers."
Yeah that would probably be the only legitimate qualifier :tongue:
MGeorge116
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:27 pm

Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?

Post by MGeorge116 »

Nothing is eternal in Buddhism. The nature of reality is impermanence.
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”