Lives After Initial Awakening

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ThreeVows
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Lives After Initial Awakening

Post by ThreeVows »

This may be difficult to express perfectly, but hopefully the intent comes through clearly enough.

Whether from a Mahayana or Theravada perspective, does anyone know what is formally said in either scriptures or valid commentaries about lifetimes after initial awakening in terms of what that looks like?

What I mean is, say that one realizes the first bhumi or stream entry, and then that individual dies and takes birth as, say, a chakravartin, or as just an ordinary person.

Is it said that such a person does not remember their previous lifetime immediately as a first bhumi bodhisattva/stream enterer, and they do not consciously have the cognitive structure in place that says "I am a Buddhist who has realized the nature of mind", but rather they just have a certain tendency towards renunciation of samsara and towards virtue, which may lead to re-recognition of dharmata in that particular bodymind?

Is it possible that such an individual will not, in the course of their entire lifetime, consciously encounter formal Buddhist teachings at all, or realize the nature of mind? Or would they automatically realize the nature of mind at some point?

If such an individual were born in a culture where there were no formal, extant Buddhist teachings present, would/could they realize the nature of mind in such a situation?

Could they wander for multiple lifetimes without again consciously realizing the nature of mind, even if they have a certain habit towards virtue that prevents them from taking a lower birth?

Hopefully the intention of the question is clear, and to be clear, I am specifically looking for citations, not just an explanation, ideally primary citations from sutras, etc, but secondary citations from commentaries by highly regarded masters are acceptable also. Thank you.
Malcolm
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Re: Lives After Initial Awakening

Post by Malcolm »

ThreeVows wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:59 pm This may be difficult to express perfectly, but hopefully the intent comes through clearly enough.

Whether from a Mahayana or Theravada perspective, does anyone know what is formally said in either scriptures or valid commentaries about lifetimes after initial awakening in terms of what that looks like?

What I mean is, say that one realizes the first bhumi or stream entry, and then that individual dies and takes birth as, say, a chakravartin, or as just an ordinary person.
It takes two incalculable eons to reach the eighth bhumi. One more to reach Buddhahood, according to common Mahāyāna.

In all the śrāvaka schools, once one has attained stream entry, one will attain nirvana within 7 lifetimes.

Is it said that such a person does not remember their previous lifetime immediately as a first bhumi bodhisattva/stream enterer, and they do not consciously have the cognitive structure in place that says "I am a Buddhist who has realized the nature of mind", but rather they just have a certain tendency towards renunciation of samsara and towards virtue, which may lead to re-recognition of dharmata in that particular bodymind?
This is why the bodhisattva path is so arduous and long. Until one reaches the pure bhumis one has to reascend the bhumis by meeting the dharma again, etc.
Is it possible that such an individual will not, in the course of their entire lifetime, consciously encounter formal Buddhist teachings at all, or realize the nature of mind? Or would they automatically realize the nature of mind at some point?
They may not, for many lifetimes, realize the Mahāyāna path of seeing until they meet the Dharma again, etc.
If such an individual were born in a culture where there were no formal, extant Buddhist teachings present, would/could they realize the nature of mind in such a situation?
Probably not, IMO.
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Aemilius
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Re: Lives After Initial Awakening

Post by Aemilius »

In our present modern culture, especially in the "west", we have the words "buddha" and "buddhist", and we generally acccept that they are synonyms with certain words in other languages like chinese and its several dialects, indonesian, korean, mongolian, etc.. But who can say what is "buddhism" or these other unknown words, and what is not? Some people immediately take up here the Four seals of Dharma, but even they are merely words. Who decides what is their actual meaning? In Lankavatara sutra Buddha Shakyamuni says that he is known in this Saha world (the World of Endurance or Patience) by thousand million different names and he gives some of them in that sutra.
There are also many different names of Buddha and many different formulations of the four noble truths in the Avatamsaka sutra. Reading them gives you a much wider perspective.

Lankavatara, chapter XII: "Then said Mahamati to the Blessed One: It has been taught in the canonical books that the Buddhas are subject to neither birth nor destruction, and you have said that "the Un-born" is one of the names of the Tathagatas; does that mean that the Tathagata is a non-entity?

"The Blessed One replied: The Tathagata is not a non-entity nor is he to be conceived as other things are as neither born nor disappearing, nor is he subject to causation, not is he without significance; yet I refer to him as "The Un-born." There is yet another name for the Tathagata. "The Mind-appearing One" (Manomayakaya) which his Essence-body assumes at will in the transformations incident to his work of emancipation. This is beyond the understanding of common disciples and masters and even beyond the full comprehension of those Bodhisattvas who remain in the seventh stage. Yes, Mahamati, "The Un-born" is synonymous with Tathagata.

"Then Mahamati said: If the Tathagatas are un-born, there does not seem to be anything to take hold of – no entity – or is there something that bears another name than entity? And what can that "something" be?

"The Blessed One replied: Objects are frequently known by different names according to different aspects that they present, -- the god Indra is sometimes known as Shakra, and sometimes as Purandara. These different names are sometimes used interchangeably and sometimes they are discriminated, but different objects are not to be imagined because of the different names, nor are they without individuation. The same can be said of myself as I appear in this world of patience before ignorant people and where I am known by uncounted trillions of names. They address me by different names not realizing that they are all names of the one Tathagata. Some recognize me as Sun, as Moon; some as a reincarnation of the ancient sages; some as one of "ten powers"; some as Rama, some as Indra, and some as Varuna. Still there are others who speak of me as The Un-born, as Emptiness, as "Suchness," as Truth, as Reality, as Ultimate Principle; still there are others who see me as Dharmakaya, as Nirvana, as the Eternal; some speak of me as sameness, as non-duality, as un-dying, as formless; some think of me as the doctrine of Buddha-causation, or of Emancipation, or of the Noble Path; and some think of me as Divine Mind and Noble Wisdom. Thus in this world and in other worlds am I known by these uncounted names, but they all see me as the moon is seen in the water. Though they all honor, praise and esteem me, they do not fully understand the meaning and significance of the words they use; not having their own self-realization of Truth they cling to the words of their canonical books, or to what has been told to them, or to what they have imagined, and fail to see that the name they are using is only one of the many names of the Tathagata. In their studies they follow the mere words of the text vainly trying to gain the true meaning, instead of having confidence in the one "text" where self-confirming Truth is revealed, that is, having confidence in the self-realization of noble Wisdom."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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