Altruism

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Altruism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:16 am There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta.
There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta, and there is no absolute bodhicitta without relative bodhicitta.

The designations of “absolute”and “relative” can only be when the two are compared with each other.
In other words,
“Absolute” only exists in relation to “relative”
which means that absolute bodhicitta is relative too.

But really, the term “bodhicitta” refers to two different things. Relative bodhicitta refers to the altruistic mind, while absolute bodhicitta refers to the mind which directly perceives emptiness.

Frankly, I don’t know why the same word is used for two different things. One could perceive emptiness yet never care about anyone else, couldn’t they?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Altruism

Post by Archie2009 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:41 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:16 am There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta.
There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta, and there is no absolute bodhicitta without relative bodhicitta.

The designations of “absolute”and “relative” can only be when the two are compared with each other.
In other words,
“Absolute” only exists in relation to “relative”
which means that absolute bodhicitta is relative too.

But really, the term “bodhicitta” refers to two different things. Relative bodhicitta refers to the altruistic mind, while absolute bodhicitta refers to the mind which directly perceives emptiness.

Frankly, I don’t know why the same word is used for two different things. One could perceive emptiness yet never care about anyone else, couldn’t they?
No, PadmaVonSamba. But it doesn't necessarily involve you shedding tears like a garden hose as many lamas seem to encourage.
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Having realized the enormous disadvantages of holding on to a selfish thought cherishing your welfare alone, you should now reflect upon the kindness of all mother sentient beings, as discussed earlier. The kindness of other beings towards us is boundless while we revolve in this cycle of existence. This is particularly true when we first embark upon a spiritual path and thus begin the process of untying the chains that bind us to this cyclic existence.
We find that if a person lives a very selfish life and is never concerned about the welfare of others, he will have few friends, and people will not take much notice of him. At the time of his death, there will not be many people who will regret his passing. Some deceptive and negative persons may be very powerful and wealthy, and therefore some people—for economic reasons and so forth—might portray themselves as friends, but they will speak against such persons behind their backs. When these negative persons die, these very same “friends” may rejoice at their death.
On the other hand, many people mourn and regret the death of a person who is very kind and always altruistic and who works for the benefit of others. We find that altruism, as well as the person who possesses it, is regarded as the friend of all, and it becomes the object of veneration and respect by others.
HHDL
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heart
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Re: Altruism

Post by heart »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:41 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:16 am There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta.
There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta, and there is no absolute bodhicitta without relative bodhicitta.

The designations of “absolute”and “relative” can only be when the two are compared with each other.
In other words,
“Absolute” only exists in relation to “relative”
which means that absolute bodhicitta is relative too.

But really, the term “bodhicitta” refers to two different things. Relative bodhicitta refers to the altruistic mind, while absolute bodhicitta refers to the mind which directly perceives emptiness.

Frankly, I don’t know why the same word is used for two different things. One could perceive emptiness yet never care about anyone else, couldn’t they?
What you say above is a good example of why I been posting in this thread, this is exactly the misstake people do. Absolute Bodhicitta is the root of relative Bodhicitta, not the other way around. And they are not two different things and if you understand emptiness correctly you most certainly care for others.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:41 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:16 am There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta.
There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta, and there is no absolute bodhicitta without relative bodhicitta.

The designations of “absolute”and “relative” can only be when the two are compared with each other.
In other words,
“Absolute” only exists in relation to “relative”
which means that absolute bodhicitta is relative too.

But really, the term “bodhicitta” refers to two different things. Relative bodhicitta refers to the altruistic mind, while absolute bodhicitta refers to the mind which directly perceives emptiness.

Frankly, I don’t know why the same word is used for two different things. One could perceive emptiness yet never care about anyone else, couldn’t they?
What you say above is a good example of why I been posting in this thread, this is exactly the misstake people do. Absolute Bodhicitta is the root of relative Bodhicitta, not the other way around. And they are not two different things and if you understand emptiness correctly you most certainly care for others.
So the generation stage is futile because that's what you seem to be saying
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Re: Altruism

Post by heart »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:49 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:41 pm

There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta, and there is no absolute bodhicitta without relative bodhicitta.

The designations of “absolute”and “relative” can only be when the two are compared with each other.
In other words,
“Absolute” only exists in relation to “relative”
which means that absolute bodhicitta is relative too.

But really, the term “bodhicitta” refers to two different things. Relative bodhicitta refers to the altruistic mind, while absolute bodhicitta refers to the mind which directly perceives emptiness.

Frankly, I don’t know why the same word is used for two different things. One could perceive emptiness yet never care about anyone else, couldn’t they?
What you say above is a good example of why I been posting in this thread, this is exactly the misstake people do. Absolute Bodhicitta is the root of relative Bodhicitta, not the other way around. And they are not two different things and if you understand emptiness correctly you most certainly care for others.
So the generation stage is futile because that's what you seem to be saying
That is not what I am saying at all. I been talking mahayana not vajrayana so far however if you want to talk vajrayana then it is more or less the same. Your generation stage will be shaky until some of the wisdom of the completion state will put it on fire. True generation stage always have taste of the completion state.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:01 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:49 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:42 pm

What you say above is a good example of why I been posting in this thread, this is exactly the misstake people do. Absolute Bodhicitta is the root of relative Bodhicitta, not the other way around. And they are not two different things and if you understand emptiness correctly you most certainly care for others.
So the generation stage is futile because that's what you seem to be saying
That is not what I am saying at all. I been talking mahayana not vajrayana so far however if you want to talk vajrayana then it is more or less the same. Your generation stage will be shaky until some of the wisdom of the completion state will put it on fire. True generation stage always have taste of the completion state.
Thanks good point I've practiced Dzogchen and for periods Mahamudra since 2018 but I'm just not emphasising it with this thread on Altruism because other people like Malcolm are experts in it plus all I'm doing is copy and pasting what I think are useful quotes on altruism in a bid to empower/inspire myself and others whether through relative or absolute bodhicitta

So I'm not denying absolute bodhicitta in any way and it's connection to relative bodhicitta as I mentioned we're limited due to the Bodhisattva Vows

I've had moments of great compassion come up due to Dzogchen how people want to practice and what they want to emphasise is up to themselves and their teacher.
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Re: Altruism

Post by heart »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:16 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:01 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:49 pm
So the generation stage is futile because that's what you seem to be saying
That is not what I am saying at all. I been talking mahayana not vajrayana so far however if you want to talk vajrayana then it is more or less the same. Your generation stage will be shaky until some of the wisdom of the completion state will put it on fire. True generation stage always have taste of the completion state.
Thanks good point I've practiced Dzogchen and for periods Mahamudra since 2018 but I'm just not emphasising it with this thread on Altruism because other people like Malcolm are experts in it plus all I'm doing is copy and pasting what I think are useful quotes on altruism in a bid to empower/inspire myself and others whether through relative or absolute bodhicitta

So I'm not denying absolute bodhicitta in any way and it's connection to relative bodhicitta as I mentioned we're limited due to the Bodhisattva Vows

I've had moments of great compassion come up due to Dzogchen how people want to practice and what they want to emphasise is up to themselves and their teacher.
Like I said before all my post where about Mahayana, not Vajrayana. Absolute Bodhicitta does not necessary imply Mahamudra or Dzogchen. And from the point of Mahayana relative Bodhicitta without absolute Bodhicitta don't really exist. Then it just kindness at the most. However please carry on, I will not disturb the thread anymore.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:23 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:16 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:01 pm

That is not what I am saying at all. I been talking mahayana not vajrayana so far however if you want to talk vajrayana then it is more or less the same. Your generation stage will be shaky until some of the wisdom of the completion state will put it on fire. True generation stage always have taste of the completion state.
Thanks good point I've practiced Dzogchen and for periods Mahamudra since 2018 but I'm just not emphasising it with this thread on Altruism because other people like Malcolm are experts in it plus all I'm doing is copy and pasting what I think are useful quotes on altruism in a bid to empower/inspire myself and others whether through relative or absolute bodhicitta

So I'm not denying absolute bodhicitta in any way and it's connection to relative bodhicitta as I mentioned we're limited due to the Bodhisattva Vows

I've had moments of great compassion come up due to Dzogchen how people want to practice and what they want to emphasise is up to themselves and their teacher.
Like I said before all my post where about Mahayana, not Vajrayana. Absolute Bodhicitta does not necessary imply Mahamudra or Dzogchen. And from the point of Mahayana relative Bodhicitta without absolute Bodhicitta don't really exist. Then it just kindness at the most. However please carry on, I will not disturb the thread anymore.
Thanks have a nice New Year 😀
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Re: Altruism

Post by conebeckham »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:49 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:41 pm

There is no relative bodhicitta without absolute bodhicitta, and there is no absolute bodhicitta without relative bodhicitta.

The designations of “absolute”and “relative” can only be when the two are compared with each other.
In other words,
“Absolute” only exists in relation to “relative”
which means that absolute bodhicitta is relative too.

But really, the term “bodhicitta” refers to two different things. Relative bodhicitta refers to the altruistic mind, while absolute bodhicitta refers to the mind which directly perceives emptiness.

Frankly, I don’t know why the same word is used for two different things. One could perceive emptiness yet never care about anyone else, couldn’t they?
What you say above is a good example of why I been posting in this thread, this is exactly the misstake people do. Absolute Bodhicitta is the root of relative Bodhicitta, not the other way around. And they are not two different things and if you understand emptiness correctly you most certainly care for others.
So the generation stage is futile because that's what you seem to be saying
The generation stage is futile without emptiness. Appearances can only manifest from the ground of emptiness, yes??
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:42 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:49 pm
heart wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:42 pm

What you say above is a good example of why I been posting in this thread, this is exactly the misstake people do. Absolute Bodhicitta is the root of relative Bodhicitta, not the other way around. And they are not two different things and if you understand emptiness correctly you most certainly care for others.
So the generation stage is futile because that's what you seem to be saying
The generation stage is futile without emptiness. Appearances can only manifest from the ground of emptiness, yes??
I'm not discussing Emptiness on here due to the 11th Bodhisattva Vow

All I am is a copy and paster of nice quotes

:mrgreen:
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

(12) Everything else that's constructive resembles the plantain tree: Having given birth to its fruit, it's depleted. But the tree of bodhichitta forever bears fruit And, never depleted, it grows ever more.
Shantideva
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Re: Altruism

Post by conebeckham »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:53 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:42 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:49 pm
So the generation stage is futile because that's what you seem to be saying
The generation stage is futile without emptiness. Appearances can only manifest from the ground of emptiness, yes??
I'm not discussing Emptiness on here due to the 11th Bodhisattva Vow

All I am is a copy and paster of nice quotes

:mrgreen:
Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:53 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:42 pm

The generation stage is futile without emptiness. Appearances can only manifest from the ground of emptiness, yes??
I'm not discussing Emptiness on here due to the 11th Bodhisattva Vow

All I am is a copy and paster of nice quotes

:mrgreen:
Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....
I was responding to Magnus I didn't discuss it

Thanks for taking the time to explain that it's noted kind of you

I'll copy it into my notes on my Desktop for future reference
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Re: Altruism

Post by conebeckham »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:33 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:53 pm
I'm not discussing Emptiness on here due to the 11th Bodhisattva Vow

All I am is a copy and paster of nice quotes

:mrgreen:
Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....
I was responding to Magnus I didn't discuss it

Thanks for taking the time to explain that it's noted kind of you

I'll copy it into my notes on my Desktop for future reference
My pleasure, may it be helpful. I hope it's encouraging for any practice we do--including wishing others well!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....

This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
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Re: Altruism

Post by stoneinfocus »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....

This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Not particularly, but it does mean that at least somewhat of an understanding or inference of emptiness is necessary for generation stage.
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:59 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....

This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Not particularly, but it does mean that at least somewhat of an understanding or inference of emptiness is necessary for generation stage.
Thanks
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

(30) And (Bodhicitta) eliminates even their naivety. Where is there anything comparably constructive as that? Where is there even such a friend as that? Where is there even such a force as positive as that?
Shantideva
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Re: Altruism

Post by conebeckham »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....

This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Emptiness is ultimate whether we have direct perception of it or not. An understanding of emptiness seems essential to Creation Stage, maybe less so to the practice of relative bodhicitta. But yeah, most of our "Vajrayana practice" is aspirational.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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