What I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeingconebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:27 pmEmptiness is ultimate whether we have direct perception of it or not. An understanding of emptiness seems essential to Creation Stage, maybe less so to the practice of relative bodhicitta. But yeah, most of our "Vajrayana practice" is aspirational.Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pmconebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....
This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Altruism
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Re: Altruism
Re: Altruism
More like an union of emptiness and lucidity/clarity since everything arises from the ground state (Buddha nature)stoneinfocus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:59 pmNot particularly, but it does mean that at least somewhat of an understanding or inference of emptiness is necessary for generation stage.Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pmconebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....
This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Unless of course, you are Gelugpa who views Buddha nature essentially as mere emptiness.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
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Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
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Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Altruism
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pmWhat I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeingconebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:27 pmEmptiness is ultimate whether we have direct perception of it or not. An understanding of emptiness seems essential to Creation Stage, maybe less so to the practice of relative bodhicitta. But yeah, most of our "Vajrayana practice" is aspirational.Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm
This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Works for me.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Altruism
Thanksconebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:42 pmKonchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pmWhat I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeingconebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:27 pm
Emptiness is ultimate whether we have direct perception of it or not. An understanding of emptiness seems essential to Creation Stage, maybe less so to the practice of relative bodhicitta. But yeah, most of our "Vajrayana practice" is aspirational.
Works for me.
Enjoy the New Year by the way
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Re: Altruism
Back at ya. All the best for the next.......365 days!Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:47 pmThanksconebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:42 pmKonchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pm
What I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeing
Works for me.
Enjoy the New Year by the way
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Altruism
Sure, and this is why empowerment is necessary to really practice kyerim. One really needs an idea of mind's nature.Kai lord wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pmMore like an union of emptiness and lucidity/clarity since everything arises from the ground state (Buddha nature)stoneinfocus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:59 pmNot particularly, but it does mean that at least somewhat of an understanding or inference of emptiness is necessary for generation stage.Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm
This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Unless of course, you are Gelugpa who views Buddha nature essentially as mere emptiness.
And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
Re: Altruism
They see Buddha nature as a form of expedient mean or teaching. Not definitive. Some of their scholars even define it as a non-implicative negation. Ohers are more generous and also view Buddha nature as potentiality.stoneinfocus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:47 pm And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Re: Altruism
The commitment to help others reach buddhahood does not imply altruism. It's a commitment. It's a vow, it's not a deed.Virgo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:38 pmIf you live with bodhicitta you already have altruism.Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:34 pm After my wrathful deity retreat I came out the other side and decided to focus on altruism.
Virgo
You are not an altruist until you are an altruist and accomplish the altruistic deeds.
Re: Altruism
I think what Heart is saying is this: if you see suffering as intrinsically existent, you will a. not want to take it on and b. not be able to dispel it. In this sense, even a merely conceptual understanding of emptiness is necessary to actually practice compassion.
Which is a great point.
It also works for other paramitas - i.e. if you think your own body or possessions intrinsically exist, then it will be very hard to give them away.
Of course, most of us do think this, to some degree, and in this sense it is important to see that relative bodhicitta leads directly into absolute bodhicitta. i.e. if you practice giving your body up, then you are opening the door to seeing its emptiness.
So: the two truths constantly dovetail together, as Padmavonsambhava was pointing out.
In the context of mahamudra & dzogchen, HEGR's presentation is apt here: the thing that blocks realisation of the natural state is the 'ice-block' in the heart. When you practice relative bodhicitta, this melts the ice, opens the heart to inseparability of self and other and thus the true nature of mind.
Gampopa's four Dharmas is apt here as well.
May bodhicitta expand and flourish here at DW!
Which is a great point.
It also works for other paramitas - i.e. if you think your own body or possessions intrinsically exist, then it will be very hard to give them away.
Of course, most of us do think this, to some degree, and in this sense it is important to see that relative bodhicitta leads directly into absolute bodhicitta. i.e. if you practice giving your body up, then you are opening the door to seeing its emptiness.
So: the two truths constantly dovetail together, as Padmavonsambhava was pointing out.
In the context of mahamudra & dzogchen, HEGR's presentation is apt here: the thing that blocks realisation of the natural state is the 'ice-block' in the heart. When you practice relative bodhicitta, this melts the ice, opens the heart to inseparability of self and other and thus the true nature of mind.
Gampopa's four Dharmas is apt here as well.
May bodhicitta expand and flourish here at DW!
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Re: Altruism
Yes, but this does not mean that there is just emptiness, which is a nihilistic reduction and ignoring the essence of madhyamaka, which is freedom from the four extremes.Kai lord wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:13 amThey see Buddha nature as a form of expedient mean or teaching. Not definitive. Some of their scholars even define it as a non-implicative negation. Ohers are more generous and also view Buddha nature as potentiality.stoneinfocus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:47 pm And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
Re: Altruism
Practically speaking, practices such as tonglen which seem to be 100% relative are simultaneously 100% effective for meditating on and gaining realisations of emptiness.
I have had instructions on dissolving everything into emptiness after the taking stage. Someone mentioned HEGR's tonglen-tummo combo. Lama Lena has a Dzogchen tonglen technique which is great, will post it in a sec.....
I have had instructions on dissolving everything into emptiness after the taking stage. Someone mentioned HEGR's tonglen-tummo combo. Lama Lena has a Dzogchen tonglen technique which is great, will post it in a sec.....
Re: Altruism
Non-implicative negation does have a slight nihilistic tendency as their opponents noted.stoneinfocus wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:03 amYes, but this does not mean that there is just emptiness, which is a nihilistic reduction and ignoring the essence of madhyamaka, which is freedom from the four extremes.Kai lord wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:13 amThey see Buddha nature as a form of expedient mean or teaching. Not definitive. Some of their scholars even define it as a non-implicative negation. Ohers are more generous and also view Buddha nature as potentiality.stoneinfocus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:47 pm And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
Yes and in that approach you take on the self grasping of all sentinel beings and remove them through burning instead of taking on their sufferings which is not that effective.Someone mentioned HEGR's tonglen-tummo combo.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Altruism
Shantideva(27) If merely a thought to be of help is more especially noble than making offerings to the Buddhas, What need to mention striving for the sake of the happiness of all limited beings without exception?
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Re: Altruism
Shantideva(28) Just like a blind man Finding a gem in a pile of trash, Likewise, it's come about by some force that within me has developed a bodhichitta aim.
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Re: Altruism
Shantideva(20) .... the Vanquishing Master has said Rebirth as a human is so diflficult to attain, Just as it is for a turtle to stick its neck through the hole In a yoke adrift on the vast sea.
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Re: Altruism
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:22 amShantideva(27) If merely a thought to be of help is more especially noble than making offerings to the Buddhas, What need to mention striving for the sake of the happiness of all limited beings without exception?
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
- Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Altruism
(7) Who intentionally created All the weapons for the beings in the joyless realms? Who created the burning iron ground? Where did all the siren-maids come from?
Shantideva(8) The Sage has said that all such things as that Are (what come from) a mind having negative karmic force. Therefore, in the threefold world, there's nothing to fear except the mind.
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Re: Altruism
Shantideva(12) Cruel beings are (everywhere) just as is space: It can't possibly come that I'll have destroyed them (all). But if I've destroyed this mind of anger alone, It's the same as my having destroyed all those foes.
(13) Where could I possibly find the leather To cover with leather the whole surface of the earth? But with leather just on the soles of my shoes, It's the same as having covered the entire earth's surface.
(14) Likewise, although it's impossible for me To ward off external events; If I would ward off my mind, What need to ward off anything else?
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Re: Altruism
hō.Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:16 pmShantideva(12) Cruel beings are (everywhere) just as is space: It can't possibly come that I'll have destroyed them (all). But if I've destroyed this mind of anger alone, It's the same as my having destroyed all those foes.
(13) Where could I possibly find the leather To cover with leather the whole surface of the earth? But with leather just on the soles of my shoes, It's the same as having covered the entire earth's surface.
(14) Likewise, although it's impossible for me To ward off external events; If I would ward off my mind, What need to ward off anything else?
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.