Altruism

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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:27 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....

This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Emptiness is ultimate whether we have direct perception of it or not. An understanding of emptiness seems essential to Creation Stage, maybe less so to the practice of relative bodhicitta. But yeah, most of our "Vajrayana practice" is aspirational.
What I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeing
Kai lord
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Re: Altruism

Post by Kai lord »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:59 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:24 pm Well, I quoted you.
My point is that absolute Bodhicitta, which is really our natural state, is empty --and it is precisely this emptiness which allows for relative bodhicitta as well as being the foundation of KyeRim. Whether or not one recognizes or understands emptiness, there could be no relative bodhicitta, and no "creation stage," without emptiness. Absolute, nonreferential compassion and Relative, subject/object compassion, are both possible only due to emptiness. Therefore Absolute Bodhicittta is primary. But that does not negate the practice of relative Bodhicitta, LoJong, Tonglen, and also deity yoga.....

This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Not particularly, but it does mean that at least somewhat of an understanding or inference of emptiness is necessary for generation stage.
More like an union of emptiness and lucidity/clarity since everything arises from the ground state (Buddha nature)

Unless of course, you are Gelugpa who views Buddha nature essentially as mere emptiness.
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conebeckham
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Re: Altruism

Post by conebeckham »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:27 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm


This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Emptiness is ultimate whether we have direct perception of it or not. An understanding of emptiness seems essential to Creation Stage, maybe less so to the practice of relative bodhicitta. But yeah, most of our "Vajrayana practice" is aspirational.
What I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeing

Works for me.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:42 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:27 pm

Emptiness is ultimate whether we have direct perception of it or not. An understanding of emptiness seems essential to Creation Stage, maybe less so to the practice of relative bodhicitta. But yeah, most of our "Vajrayana practice" is aspirational.
What I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeing

Works for me.
Thanks

Enjoy the New Year by the way ✨️
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conebeckham
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Re: Altruism

Post by conebeckham »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:47 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:42 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pm
What I've been taught is the ensuing practice from pointing out and the pointing out itself is sufficient. Somewhat of a strong understanding but not necessarily the Path of Seeing

Works for me.
Thanks

Enjoy the New Year by the way ✨️
Back at ya. All the best for the next.......365 days!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
stoneinfocus
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Re: Altruism

Post by stoneinfocus »

Kai lord wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:33 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:59 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:36 pm


This would imply however that only Aryas can practice Vajrayana which must be incorrect
Not particularly, but it does mean that at least somewhat of an understanding or inference of emptiness is necessary for generation stage.
More like an union of emptiness and lucidity/clarity since everything arises from the ground state (Buddha nature)

Unless of course, you are Gelugpa who views Buddha nature essentially as mere emptiness.
Sure, and this is why empowerment is necessary to really practice kyerim. One really needs an idea of mind's nature.

And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
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Re: Altruism

Post by Kai lord »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:47 pm And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
They see Buddha nature as a form of expedient mean or teaching. Not definitive. Some of their scholars even define it as a non-implicative negation. Ohers are more generous and also view Buddha nature as potentiality.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Altruism

Post by Miorita »

Virgo wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:38 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:34 pm After my wrathful deity retreat I came out the other side and decided to focus on altruism.
If you live with bodhicitta you already have altruism. :)

Virgo
The commitment to help others reach buddhahood does not imply altruism. It's a commitment. It's a vow, it's not a deed.
You are not an altruist until you are an altruist and accomplish the altruistic deeds.
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tobes
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Re: Altruism

Post by tobes »

I think what Heart is saying is this: if you see suffering as intrinsically existent, you will a. not want to take it on and b. not be able to dispel it. In this sense, even a merely conceptual understanding of emptiness is necessary to actually practice compassion.

Which is a great point.

It also works for other paramitas - i.e. if you think your own body or possessions intrinsically exist, then it will be very hard to give them away.

Of course, most of us do think this, to some degree, and in this sense it is important to see that relative bodhicitta leads directly into absolute bodhicitta. i.e. if you practice giving your body up, then you are opening the door to seeing its emptiness.

So: the two truths constantly dovetail together, as Padmavonsambhava was pointing out.

In the context of mahamudra & dzogchen, HEGR's presentation is apt here: the thing that blocks realisation of the natural state is the 'ice-block' in the heart. When you practice relative bodhicitta, this melts the ice, opens the heart to inseparability of self and other and thus the true nature of mind.

Gampopa's four Dharmas is apt here as well.

May bodhicitta expand and flourish here at DW!
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Re: Altruism

Post by stoneinfocus »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:13 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:47 pm And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
They see Buddha nature as a form of expedient mean or teaching. Not definitive. Some of their scholars even define it as a non-implicative negation. Ohers are more generous and also view Buddha nature as potentiality.
Yes, but this does not mean that there is just emptiness, which is a nihilistic reduction and ignoring the essence of madhyamaka, which is freedom from the four extremes.
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Re: Altruism

Post by tobes »

Practically speaking, practices such as tonglen which seem to be 100% relative are simultaneously 100% effective for meditating on and gaining realisations of emptiness.

I have had instructions on dissolving everything into emptiness after the taking stage. Someone mentioned HEGR's tonglen-tummo combo. Lama Lena has a Dzogchen tonglen technique which is great, will post it in a sec.....
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tobes
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Re: Altruism

Post by tobes »

Here it is:

Kai lord
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Re: Altruism

Post by Kai lord »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:03 am
Kai lord wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:13 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:47 pm And not sure where you got that idea about the Gelugpas. That's absolutely not true.
They see Buddha nature as a form of expedient mean or teaching. Not definitive. Some of their scholars even define it as a non-implicative negation. Ohers are more generous and also view Buddha nature as potentiality.
Yes, but this does not mean that there is just emptiness, which is a nihilistic reduction and ignoring the essence of madhyamaka, which is freedom from the four extremes.
Non-implicative negation does have a slight nihilistic tendency as their opponents noted.
Someone mentioned HEGR's tonglen-tummo combo.
Yes and in that approach you take on the self grasping of all sentinel beings and remove them through burning instead of taking on their sufferings which is not that effective.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

(27) If merely a thought to be of help is more especially noble than making offerings to the Buddhas, What need to mention striving for the sake of the happiness of all limited beings without exception?
Shantideva
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Re: Altruism

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(28) Just like a blind man Finding a gem in a pile of trash, Likewise, it's come about by some force that within me has developed a bodhichitta aim.
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Re: Altruism

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(20) .... the Vanquishing Master has said Rebirth as a human is so diflficult to attain, Just as it is for a turtle to stick its neck through the hole In a yoke adrift on the vast sea.
Shantideva
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Re: Altruism

Post by jet.urgyen »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:22 am
(27) If merely a thought to be of help is more especially noble than making offerings to the Buddhas, What need to mention striving for the sake of the happiness of all limited beings without exception?
Shantideva
:cheers:
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

(7) Who intentionally created All the weapons for the beings in the joyless realms? Who created the burning iron ground? Where did all the siren-maids come from?
(8) The Sage has said that all such things as that Are (what come from) a mind having negative karmic force. Therefore, in the threefold world, there's nothing to fear except the mind.
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Re: Altruism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

(12) Cruel beings are (everywhere) just as is space: It can't possibly come that I'll have destroyed them (all). But if I've destroyed this mind of anger alone, It's the same as my having destroyed all those foes.
(13) Where could I possibly find the leather To cover with leather the whole surface of the earth? But with leather just on the soles of my shoes, It's the same as having covered the entire earth's surface.
(14) Likewise, although it's impossible for me To ward off external events; If I would ward off my mind, What need to ward off anything else?
Shantideva
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Re: Altruism

Post by jet.urgyen »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:16 pm
(12) Cruel beings are (everywhere) just as is space: It can't possibly come that I'll have destroyed them (all). But if I've destroyed this mind of anger alone, It's the same as my having destroyed all those foes.
(13) Where could I possibly find the leather To cover with leather the whole surface of the earth? But with leather just on the soles of my shoes, It's the same as having covered the entire earth's surface.
(14) Likewise, although it's impossible for me To ward off external events; If I would ward off my mind, What need to ward off anything else?
Shantideva
hō.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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