Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Anders wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:14 am A lot of gnashing of teeth in various directions on this.

It doesn't matter if none of our generations will see the application of the this. Fusion energy is the definitive solution to the energy problem. When we get to there, it is an utter game changer.

Some things are worth investing more than a century into developing.
I'm not gnashing my teeth at all but if I were, I would be gnashing them over the stupidity of believing that fusion power is any part of a solution to our urgent climate crisis, not over the desirability of good science.
Good science is always a good investment. Allowing ourselves to be distracted from the approaching sabre-toothed tiger by a pretty kingfisher nearby is never a good investment.

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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

Post by Anders »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:12 pm
Anders wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:14 am A lot of gnashing of teeth in various directions on this.

It doesn't matter if none of our generations will see the application of the this. Fusion energy is the definitive solution to the energy problem. When we get to there, it is an utter game changer.

Some things are worth investing more than a century into developing.
I'm not gnashing my teeth at all but if I were, I would be gnashing them over the stupidity of believing that fusion power is any part of a solution to our urgent climate crisis, not over the desirability of good science.
Good science is always a good investment. Allowing ourselves to be distracted from the approaching sabre-toothed tiger by a pretty kingfisher nearby is never a good investment.

:namaste:
Kim
Is that happening though? Where are "time to dismantle windmills" claims? Fusion energy development is not an either or proposition to the solutions to the climate crisis.
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

Post by Queequeg »

Anders wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:20 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:12 pm
Anders wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:14 am A lot of gnashing of teeth in various directions on this.

It doesn't matter if none of our generations will see the application of the this. Fusion energy is the definitive solution to the energy problem. When we get to there, it is an utter game changer.

Some things are worth investing more than a century into developing.
I'm not gnashing my teeth at all but if I were, I would be gnashing them over the stupidity of believing that fusion power is any part of a solution to our urgent climate crisis, not over the desirability of good science.
Good science is always a good investment. Allowing ourselves to be distracted from the approaching sabre-toothed tiger by a pretty kingfisher nearby is never a good investment.

:namaste:
Kim
Is that happening though? Where are "time to dismantle windmills" claims? Fusion energy development is not an either or proposition to the solutions to the climate crisis.
I don't know if there's been much teeth gnashing except the, "if only the hippies hadn't stopped research into fusion we'd be living in a fusion future!". The rest is, "oh great. They made fusion "work. Doesn't help us now"/"no! This is a game changer." Typical DW argument over nothing.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

Post by Kai lord »

Anders wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:14 am It doesn't matter if none of our generations will see the application of the this. Fusion energy is the definitive solution to the energy problem. When we get to there, it is an utter game changer.
Finally the wise has spoken. :applause:
Some things are worth investing more than a century into developing.
Human technology had shown to thrive under times of turmoil and conflict, as we are entering in such period now, so it might not take that long.
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

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Queequeg wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:15 pm I don't know if there's been much teeth gnashing except the, "if only the hippies hadn't stopped research into fusion we'd be living in a fusion future!".
This didn't happen. To the extent that fusion research was cut back in the US, this was done by short-sighted politicians who worship the short-term bottom line and justify their actions based on strict economics. However fusion research was never halted even in the short-sighted US. The US is only one country of many that conducted fusion research (principally the US, Russia, China, and the EU but also Canada, Australia, Switzerland, the Ukraine, Brazil, India and other nations). This was a worldwide effort down many different paths.
The rest is, "oh great. They made fusion "work. Doesn't help us now"/"no! This is a game changer." Typical DW argument over nothing.
This isn't an argument over nothing. This is a game changer but it comes too late to prevent climate disaster. Nonetheless if we can field fusion power (note that I did not say "commercial fusion power") in 20 years than we could use that power to mitigate inevitable climate disaster and restore climate balance over the next 1000 or so years and to keep billions from dying (from inevitable agricultural collapse).
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

Post by Virgo »

From here until the end of the video is significant on this point:



The argument that they didn't is nothing but obfuscation of the main point. The point being that we need to develop this technology and we need to preserve it, obviously.

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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

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Virgo wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:43 pm The point being that we need to develop this technology and we need to preserve it, obviously.
I think one of the main problems is people don't understand the potential of this power. It would solve all our energy problems. It's such a boost for humanity that it is nearly impossible to overstate how important it is. That is why not wanting to go forward is seen by me as being incredibly selfish.

We also need to preserve the knowledge for future civilizations. We do not know if we will make it out of this climate crisis. It's possible everything will be lost, including this. It needs to be buried deep within the earth for the future. Do you know what a boost that would be to a civilization that rose out of ashes of the conflict and war that may come with the coming climate crisis? Maybe people would prefer that they just write science-fiction books about it instead.

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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

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Virgo wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:43 pm From here until the end of the video is significant on this point:



The argument that they didn't is nothing but obfuscation of the main point.
Your point is is itself obfuscated. Hansen is talking about fast-neutron fission reactors which should have been deployed. Hansen says that "the anti-nuclear" people were the influence that prohibited this move. That was true in Europe but not the US. Nuclear power was simply not supported in the US primarily because it is an anti-science country led by people who lack a science background (the fact that most politicians lack a science background is true of most countries)*. Then the Three Mile Island (non-)accident put the nail in the coffin of fission power and American scientists and engineers largely retreated into an insular group. Then the Golden Calf of economics came to play, proving again that Americans know the cost of everything but the value of very little.

"Hippies [what does this even mean?] stopped fusion research" is a totally false statement. It isn't even true that they stopped fission deployment. US politicians sometimes invoking economics did.
The point being that we need to develop this technology and we need to preserve it, obviously.
Fast-neutron reactors will not be deployed at scale in the US because it is an anti-science country and because of the economics excuse.

This is not likely to be the case for fusion power although almost certainly the short-sighted economics excuse will be invoked initially until it is clear that we will die of a lack of water because of changed rain patterns and that full scale desalination plants will be needed very shortly and the power to run them will have to come from fusion reactors.
----------------------------------------
* Incredibly it turns out that Jimmy Carter stopped fast-neutron reactors in the US and he definitely had a background in nuclear engineering.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

Post by Queequeg »

To paraphrase Bill Clinton: "Its the profits, stupid."

I'm generally going to agree with Kirt except I don't think its the anti-science crowd that prevented a more robust effort to develop nuclear energy, but rather the lack of any promise of profits, or rather insufficient promise of profits in the face of entrenched fossil fuel interests who would lose profits with a robust nuclear industry. In other words, one industry had the money for lobbyists, the other hadn't been born yet and there was not sufficient political will to birth one.

The know-nothings are useful idiots, but when they get in the way of making money, they will get steam rolled. They're a side show. That's the American Way. There Will Be Blood

Again, this is why the Biden legislation is truly momentous. This legislation, along with the renewed Buy American policies, is going to kick start an American Green Tech industry that will soon have its army of lobbyists looking to extend and expand the tax credits designed to upgrade heating, insulation, electric grid, electrification, etc. I just found out, one of my neighbors is installing a $60,000 geothermal heating system for $15,000 out of pocket. The Federal and State governments are paying the balance. This is going to catch on and it is going to be huge. Jump starting this work is going to drive prices down, incentivize innovation, create a market for mass production... and then these companies are going to be looking overseas for customers which will either open to these mammoth American companies or spur governments around the world to nurture their own domestic green tech industries.

All along, I expect the US Gov. to continue funding fundamental research, and I anticipate as lawmakers realize this stuff is a boon to the economy, will direct spending to more research and development.

We're in the middle of an idiotic time in the US right now, but I am sensing we're shaking it off. There is too much money to be made upgrading everything. Its not going to be some utopian dream and its still going to be pretty dirty, but overall, I'm finally hopeful that we're going to mitigate the carbon disaster. Nature will start recovering if we just give it some time and space. We just need to keep tending the way we're going.

Sure, at some point we can have fusion batteries powering everything. That's a long ways off and will come or it won't. In the meantime, we've got the means and the emerging will to stop burning shit to stay warm and cook our food.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

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https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/opin ... ibben.html

Kind of relevant here. He does admit he made a mistake opposing Nuclear energy, but his rationale is a bit nuanced. That said, his overall point is we have the tech and capacity to decarbonize now and the will might finally be here to do it.

Nothing here about fusion, but I imagine his reaction to the announcement the other day is, "meh."
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Fusion breakthrough and Kardashev Level 1

Post by Agent Smith »

Thanks for the replies forum denizens. Some, it seems, are pessimistic about this latest baby step science has made towards fusion energy. I join you in your doubts about how much of a step forward this is.
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