Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

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Kai lord
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Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:05 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:32 am
Besides all the stated differences, other major difference is that Kalachakra's yoga practices eventually lead to an alchemist purification and transformation of the physical body while the Patanjali's methods only lead to mastery and control of the body.
This not true, actually. The purpose of the Yoga Sutra’s method is purify tamas, then rajas, so the sattvic yogin can now realize that (inanimate) buddhi just reflects purusha, and enters Kaivaliya, resting directly as purusha. The Yoga Sutra faults those who merely try to refine Prakrit (I.e Buddhists, etc.).
Purify gunas? I suppose thats our Buddhist way of looking at things. What I learned is that yoga works towards the balancing of all the three gunas by cultivating sattva and reducing the other two. All the three gunas are eventually transcended at higher levels of samadhi.

Savikalpa Samadhi and asamprajñata samadhi (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) are rather similar to the form and formless dhyanas in Buddhism in which the body is ignored.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:23 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:36 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:37 am

Samadhi is incapable of producing awakening. Awakening is produced by view.

Interest, diligence, meditation, samadhi, and prajna.
You left out mindfulness: should be faith, diligence, mindfulness, samadhi, and prajna.

“All realization proceeds from view.”
—Aryadeva, 400 Verses.

Without right view, the five faculties you mention above are rudderless.

Oops. Yea I mistakenly wrote "meditation" instead of dran pa, smrti, or mindfulness
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Natan
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Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

Post by Natan »

stong gzugs wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:48 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:32 am Besides all the stated differences, other major difference is that Kalachakra's yoga practices eventually lead to an alchemist purification and transformation of the physical body while the Patanjali's methods only lead to mastery and control of the body.
Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I was referencing to explain why these two "samadhis" are not the same thing, such that Kālacakra cannot reasonably be described as a "dressed up" version of Patanjali.
What does samadhi mean? Sama = same. Dhi = mind. That same mind and this same mind are different same minds? 🤣

Sadhanapada and Kriya...
Preliminaries and Guru Yoga

Ashtanga...
Yama and Niyama: Samaya+Brahmacharya

Asana...
Postures...

Pranayama. .
Tummo

Pratyhara...
Deity and completion stage w karmamudra and more brahmachary

Dharana...
Vajra recitation and isolations etc, vajra yogas

Dhyana...
Vajra yogas

Samadhi
Kalachakra appearance.

Very dressed up and very lovely
Last edited by Natan on Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:28 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:48 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:32 am Besides all the stated differences, other major difference is that Kalachakra's yoga practices eventually lead to an alchemist purification and transformation of the physical body while the Patanjali's methods only lead to mastery and control of the body.
Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I was referencing to explain why these two "samadhis" are not the same thing, such that Kālacakra cannot reasonably be described as a "dressed up" version of Patanjali.
What does samadhi mean? Sama = same. Dhi = mind. That same mind and this same mind are different same minds? 🤣

samA = level, ting nge

dhi from dhr, holding, maintaining, ‘dzin pa.

The Buddhist gloss then is “Maintaining the level,” literally.
stong gzugs
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Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

Post by stong gzugs »

Natan wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:28 pm What does samadhi mean?
Very dressed up and very lovely
I'm happy to let our respective analyses of these yoga systems stand as they've been presented and rest my case here! Have a good weekend :smile:
Kai lord
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Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

Post by Kai lord »

Natan wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:28 pm
stong gzugs wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:48 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:32 am Besides all the stated differences, other major difference is that Kalachakra's yoga practices eventually lead to an alchemist purification and transformation of the physical body while the Patanjali's methods only lead to mastery and control of the body.
Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I was referencing to explain why these two "samadhis" are not the same thing, such that Kālacakra cannot reasonably be described as a "dressed up" version of Patanjali.
What does samadhi mean? Sama = same. Dhi = mind. That same mind and this same mind are different same minds? 🤣

Sadhanapada and Kriya...
Preliminaries and Guru Yoga

Ashtanga...
Yama and Niyama: Samaya+Brahmacharya

Asana...
Postures...

Pranayama. .
Tummo

Pratyhara...
Deity and completion stage w karmamudra and more brahmachary

Dharana...
Vajra recitation and isolations etc, vajra yogas

Dhyana...
Vajra yogas

Samadhi
Kalachakra appearance.

Very dressed up and very lovely
Since we are all suddenly comparing similarities between Buddhism and yoga school, lets push it to one level higher. :stirthepot:

A) Savikalpa Samadhi

Stage 1. Sarvitarka Samadhi = First Dhyana

Stage 2. Savichara Samadhi = Second Dhyana

Stage 3. SaAnanda Samadhi = Third Dhyana

Stage 4. SaAsmita Samadhi = Fourth Dhyana

B) asamprajñata or Nirvikalpa Samadhi (infinite consciousness/neither perception nor non-perception)

C) Dharmamegha Samadhi (????)
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Natan
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Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?

Post by Natan »

stong gzugs wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:02 pm
Natan wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:28 pm What does samadhi mean?
Very dressed up and very lovely
I'm happy to let our respective analyses of these yoga systems stand as they've been presented and rest my case here! Have a good weekend :smile:
This is not yet thinking like a yogi. There's no case. Look, we all know Vajrayana has it's base, path and fruit. It has its view, meditation, action and fruit. It's calling liberation the actualization of non-dual Appearance-emptiness.

What I'm saying, and I know I read it in Mipham because that is basically all I read. Kalachakra is following the 8 limb yoga modality. And it makes sense. You swear samayas. Enter deity yoga, and the mind withdraws from sense objects. You concentrate reciting mantra. You maintain concentration with karmamudra. Your Brahmacharya is not to lose semen. The concentration is further refined in vajra recitation and tummo. The concentration is released into incorporeal contemplation, until the body is no matter at all. This is a very classic Indian yoga. It shares aspects of Total and Yangti, but those others do not really follow the classic Indian yoga modality.

Ati, Yangti or whatever does not really have any deity yoga recitation the way you understand them. It can, but it's not fit into a definite modality. One can get into the vajra chains or the yoga of subtle channels initially, even without so called tregcho. It depends how someone understands.

It also doesn't have any completion stage. The modality doesn't fit what came before. But, if you like, you can transpose maps from any system, like I just did to Kalachakra. What this implies is a yearning for freedom that was answered. All this yoga stuff is a bit heavy handed with it's steps and requirements. It's a bit disconcerting and discombobulating when we find out we can do even better without them.

In an end of life situation, definitely Vajrayana proper has it locked in. This fits with that and inward you go to see pure unborn clear light form or if not form, clear light. Then we manifest activities.

What these pesky Himalayans sorted out in their freezing laboratory was the implications of these methods. Think Model T, 67 Chevy, Tesla. We are into a dharma beyond time and place. Sure, there are sometimes steps, sometimes stages, sometimes not. It's the promise of boing, and it's just over quickly.

Maybe it takes a while to rub the sleep out of the eyes. Maybe it takes some water in the eyes, maybe some coffee. But eventually you realize that you're awake.

Now this can happen in Vajrayana. However, the system is saying, awakening happens only at the end. Everything has to line up. Everything has to work great. When Longchenpa talks about the result of perfecting the path he talks about confidence.

In Kagyu and Nyingma we talk about loss of hope and fear. In a Vajrayana system like Kalachakra there is hope to make these appearances work out and fear they won't. You're given these tasks. It's like a treasure hunt. You score. What if you don't? Does it mean you failed? And the time for success is lost? Maybe having no yogic experience is even better, because what is not gained cannot be lost.

But let's say you do have them. Isn't there the room to say, wow I did this. I am this.This is my path. I attained this level.

The Dharmadhatu is inconceivable. As much as folks love certainty, it evades definition. Some of us have learned it can be revealed by faith and devotion alone. Or our confidence comes about thus. Pure lands, semi nirmanakaya pure lands ... We hope for the future King. This is really not freedom. The pith instructions are leading us on from the notion we can secure our freedom by our own efforts.

That which is innate and our nature is only demonstrated by yoga. It's a proof. The proof is not the pudding. At some point you habe to eat your meat or you won't get your pudding. The meat here is Buddhadharma, lost cycle of rebirth and the power to show the way.

PS. We have entered the age of AI. Whatever we say here will become Buddhadharma. I have asked the bot questions about Dharma and it's pretty good. A solid B student. It will be nearly impossible to disguise secrets going forward. It will be a Khenpo. What it won't be is a yogi.

Here is where we diverge from a major change in humanity. Separate mind from dharmata. We will be the impossible category and we will be rich, because everyone will be wondering what we know that a chatbot cannot say. I've been rewatching Matrix cinema. What these folks didn't understand was Neo had to enter a deeper matrix. The Guhyagarbha is elusive.
Last edited by Natan on Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:48 am, edited 5 times in total.
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