The tsön gang

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James Sealy
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The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=140
In addition to "Tibetan names", and the mentioning of the tsön gang:

Shardza Rinpoche, describes the situation more clearly in his comprehensive manual of Dzogchen practice, The natural arising of the 3 enlightened bodies (Kusum Rangshar). Here, in his section entitled :" The practice of the four visions of thogal", in his discussion of the first of the 4 visions, known as the appearance of the Actual Manifestation of reality (bön nyid), he discusses the arising of the visions. There Shardza rinpoche states:

Their location is the tsi ta.
Their path projects into the soft white channel.
The door arises from the liquid lamp of the far-casting lasso.
For example, it arises like the LIGHT of a butter lamp within a vase.

Then, immediately following, Shardza quotes Nail 9 of the 21 Nails zerbu nyishu (gzer bu nyi shu), as in the Introduction of this paper:

The physical heart of flesh
Is like a jeweled vase of alloyed metals.
The luminous wisdom tshon gang
Is like a lamp inside that vase.
Malcolm
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:29 pm
The luminous wisdom tshon gang
This just means the luminous wisdom that is the size of a thumb joint. Tshon gang is a measurement, not a thing. Tshon gang is the length of the thumb from the first joint to the tip of the finger nail.
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lelopa
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by lelopa »

"tshon gang" is sometimes used by Bon lamas to refer to the primordial wisdoms or lights within one's physical heart.
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Malcolm
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Malcolm »

lelopa wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:20 pm "tshon gang" is sometimes used by Bon lamas to refer to the primordial wisdoms or lights within one's physical heart.
It means what it means. It is a term from Tibetan medicine that is ultimately derived from Chinese. The same term is used in Buddhist Dzogchen teachings in the identical manner. For example, in the Ever-Present Tilaka (Thig le kun gsal):

The maṇḍala of light, which is the size of a thumb...

The citta, heart (snying), is not the heart muscle, per se (don snying), but rather is a term used to describe the central point where all the channels meet in the body.
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lelopa
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by lelopa »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:28 pm
lelopa wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:20 pm "tshon gang" is sometimes used by Bon lamas to refer to the primordial wisdoms or lights within one's physical heart.
It means what it means. It is a term from Tibetan medicine that is ultimately derived from Chinese. The same term is used in Buddhist Dzogchen teachings in the identical manner. For example, in the Ever-Present Tilaka (Thig le kun gsal):

The maṇḍala of light, which is the size of a thumb...

The citta, heart (snying), is not the heart muscle, per se (don snying), but rather is a term used to describe the central point where all the channels meet in the body.
Yes, sure!
I am not responsible for what some lamas teach!
But f.e.: "dgongs" doesn't always mean "intention" - as you already know.
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James Sealy
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:49 pm
James Sealy wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:29 pm
The luminous wisdom tshon gang
This just means the luminous wisdom that is the size of a thumb joint. Tshon gang is a measurement, not a thing. Tshon gang is the length of the thumb from the first joint to the tip of the finger nail.
It is well known to me, that a straightforward interpretation of the Tibetan word tsön gang, comes from interpreting gang, as a unit of measure, and tsön as the first phalanx of the thumb. Thus, tsön gang means the size of the first phalanx of the thumb, or, thumb-sized.

The nature of the tsön gang would be far more interesting, than the translation of the word tsön gang as it´s measure.
James Sealy
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

lelopa wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:20 pm "tshon gang" is sometimes used by Bon lamas to refer to the primordial wisdoms or lights within one's physical heart.
Agree, the location of this entity, named tsön gang is mainly situated in the human heart, and not somewhere else, like in the brains, liver or other internal organ.

The nature and the location of this tsön gang is very well explained in Bön texts.


The tsi ta
  • The material flesh tsi ta (gdos pa’i sha tsi ta) (21 Nails, Nail 9)
    The tsi ta of flesh (tsi ta’i sha) (The 6 Lamps)
    The middle of the tsi ta (tsi ta rin po che’i dbus su) (The Cycles of the 9 Hidden)
The citadel of the heart (Zhang Zhung: (she thun mang wer) (3 Proclamations, Vol 2)

So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.
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lelopa
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by lelopa »

James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 pm
lelopa wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:20 pm "tshon gang" is sometimes used by Bon lamas to refer to the primordial wisdoms or lights within one's physical heart.
Agree, the location of this entity, named tsön gang is mainly situated in the human heart, and not somewhere else, like in the brains, liver or other internal organ.

The nature and the location of this tsön gang is very well explained in Bön texts.


The tsi ta
  • The material flesh tsi ta (gdos pa’i sha tsi ta) (21 Nails, Nail 9)
    The tsi ta of flesh (tsi ta’i sha) (The 6 Lamps)
    The middle of the tsi ta (tsi ta rin po che’i dbus su) (The Cycles of the 9 Hidden)
The citadel of the heart (Zhang Zhung: (she thun mang wer) (3 Proclamations, Vol 2)

So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.
Malcolm wrote that it is NOT the heart muscle.
I've heard, or read this before but do not remember from which lama, or in which book.
Also they say that it is in the middle of the chest, the heart is not in zhe middle.
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Malcolm
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 pm So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.
This is an error of interpretation. The sgron ma gdrug gi gdams pa clearly explains the difference between the tsi ta and the heart, lungs, and so on in section nya, the lamp of the soft white channel, where it explains the anatomy and formation of the channels and cakras. It's a brief section, and it is really quite clear in disambiguating the tsi ta from the heart, etc.
James Sealy
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

lelopa wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:49 pm
James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 pm
lelopa wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:20 pm "tshon gang" is sometimes used by Bon lamas to refer to the primordial wisdoms or lights within one's physical heart.
Agree, the location of this entity, named tsön gang is mainly situated in the human heart, and not somewhere else, like in the brains, liver or other internal organ.

The nature and the location of this tsön gang is very well explained in Bön texts.


The tsi ta
  • The material flesh tsi ta (gdos pa’i sha tsi ta) (21 Nails, Nail 9)
    The tsi ta of flesh (tsi ta’i sha) (The 6 Lamps)
    The middle of the tsi ta (tsi ta rin po che’i dbus su) (The Cycles of the 9 Hidden)
The citadel of the heart (Zhang Zhung: (she thun mang wer) (3 Proclamations, Vol 2)

So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.
Malcolm wrote that it is NOT the heart muscle.
I've heard, or read this before but do not remember from which lama, or in which book.
Also they say that it is in the middle of the chest, the heart is not in zhe middle.
Well, if you read my comment, then we make use of the term tsi ta and that is the heart.
The sources for my comment, stem out of the Bön ZZNG literature, so it is confidential for Bönpos, to accept that.

The heart chakra is at the "middle " of the chest. If you practice some Guru Yoga, then you can locate that place of the heart chakra easy. It is approximately at the middle of the os sternum. The heart is larger to the left side of the os sternum. But the heart chakra is in the middle of the os sternum. So there is difference between the place of the heart chakra inside the body, and the position where the heart is located in the body.

Then the location of the tsön gang is in the middle of the heart chakra, or the middle of the os sternum.
Malcolm
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:59 pm the middle of the os sternum.
It's actually a bit lower, just above the xyphoid process of the sternum, about twelve finger widths from the throat cakra, just as the throat cakra measures about the same distance from the crown cakra.
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lelopa
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Re: The tsön gang

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James Sealy
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:22 pm
James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:59 pm the middle of the os sternum.
It's actually a bit lower, just above the xyphoid process of the sternum, about twelve finger widths from the throat cakra, just as the throat cakra measures about the same distance from the crown cakra.
That could be, that the heart chakra is there located, just above the the xyphoid process of the os sternum, In my practice of lama näldjor, the location of the entrance is exact there, and at that moment i do not make use of a yardstick.
So for me personal it is more a feeling than a position determination.

If i put my hand in front of an activated chakra, then it is warm at / in front of that place, that is the only prove i have that the chakra is running.

Then we would have the heart chakra and the middle of the heart.
At the middle of the heart is the tsön gang residing.
Malcolm
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:51 pm
At the middle of the heart is the tsön gang residing.
Yes, the place in the body where all the channels meet.
James Sealy
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:25 pm
James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:51 pm
At the middle of the heart is the tsön gang residing.
Yes, the place in the body where all the channels meet.

According the heart, related to the tsön gang , we know in Bön the following:

The 5 Subtle Channels within which Primordial Wisdom Moves

Single Root

As for the first [of the 5 subtle channels within which primordial wisdom moves] the single root in the centre within the heart, is the king of the subtle channels which is similar like the crystal.

It has the size of the first phalanx of the thumb and the width of one-tenth of a horse hair. It is known as the ‘Subtle Channel of Authentic Primordial Wisdom Dwelling [within One’s Physical Heart]’ as abiding place that supports self-originated Awareness.

4 Ministers
From [this king of] the subtle channels within the heart spread the 4 subtle channels of the four ministers. These [4] have the following names:
1.The subtle channel known as the one that `Holds the Base of Existence´.
2. The subtle channel known as the one that `Clarifies the Sense Organs´.
3. The subtle channel known as the one that `Governs [the Vital Organs] as Wheel Turning King´.
4. The subtle channel known as the one that `Clarifies and Draws Forth Innermost Radiance´.

The 3 Trunks
[From the single root, the subtle channels within the heart spread] the 3 trunks:
1. The white solitary subtle channel of the method is on the right side,
2.The red flavory subtle channel of the [supreme] knowledge is on the left side,
3. The [blue] central channel of the pure and perfect state is in the center or avadhuti.

Moreover, in certain scriptures there exists the [more rare] explanation of 5 [subtle channels]:
1.The solitary subtle channel (rkyang ma/lalana) on the right side.
2.The flavor subtle channel (ro ma/rasana) on the left side.
3.The tiny piercing subtle channel (rnyung zug) in front.
4.The tiny subtle channel (nyung ma) in the back.
5.The completely vibrating subtle channel (kun ‘dar ma) in the center.

Consequently, the 5 wheels or cakras such as `The Wheel of Great Bliss´ are counted as one. The 5-fold`Luminous Radiance´ [of the subtle channels of the king and the 4 ministers are counted as one. Together with [the subtle channels of] `The 3 Trunks´ it makes 5 subtle channels within which wisdom moves.
Malcolm
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:25 pm
James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:51 pm
At the middle of the heart is the tsön gang residing.
Yes, the place in the body where all the channels meet.

According the heart, related to the tsön gang , we know in Bön the following:
It's the same in the Buddhist presentations.
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Terma »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:28 pm The citta, heart (snying), is not the heart muscle, per se (don snying), but rather is a term used to describe the central point where all the channels meet in the body.
Hi Malcolm,

You and I briefly discussed this a month or so ago in a now closed thread. Your responses made a lot of sense to me, but I still had qualms with the wording of the (translated) texts.

Since that time, I was able to personally present this question to Chaphur Rinpoche during a teaching on "The 6 Thigle's". To paraphrase Rinpoche (poorly at that), he said that of course they were two different things (meaning the "heart organ" and the "heart center"). He then said that although the physical heart could be seen as a support in a sense, it does in fact refer to the subtle body heart center as we would normally understand. Also, he reminded us that you couldn't simply pinpoint a particular spot within the actual heart where rigpa abides, because rather it is within the most subtlest aspect of light/energy within the "heart center."

Forgive my poor recollection of Chaphur Rinpoche's actual comments, but it was really helpful and important to have my understanding refined nonetheless.

Thanks for your insight as well.
James Sealy
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:33 pm
James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 pm So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.
This is an error of interpretation. The sgron ma gdrug gi gdams pa clearly explains the difference between the tsi ta and the heart, lungs, and so on in section nya, the lamp of the soft white channel, where it explains the anatomy and formation of the channels and cakras. It's a brief section, and it is really quite clear in disambiguating the tsi ta from the heart, etc.

Well in all the Bön texts i have in my library, is mentioned that the Tsitta is similar to the flesh heart, and then it would be for Bönpos a fact.
====================
6 Lamps of the Bön tradition
The teachings associated with each Lamp form a key point (gnad) in themselves, dealing with specific themes. Here, the teachings associated with the Lamp of the Flesh-Heart (tsitta sha’i sgron ma) actually make up what is known as the “key point of the inner arising of natural Awareness.” The Lamp of the Flesh-Heart is thus to be understood as a Base (gzhi) from which Awareness naturally arises.
James Sealy
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by James Sealy »

James Sealy wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:31 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:33 pm
James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 pm So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.
This is an error of interpretation. The sgron ma gdrug gi gdams pa clearly explains the difference between the tsi ta and the heart, lungs, and so on in section nya, the lamp of the soft white channel, where it explains the anatomy and formation of the channels and cakras. It's a brief section, and it is really quite clear in disambiguating the tsi ta from the heart, etc.

Well in all the Bön texts i have in my library, is mentioned that the tsitta is similar to the flesh heart, and then it would be for Bönpos a fact.
This tsön gang abides in the heart = tsitta , so it is teached by our Bön Rinpoches and translators.
That this would be different for you, well that is never our problem in Bön.
====================
6 Lamps of the Bön tradition
The teachings associated with each Lamp form a key point (gnad) in themselves, dealing with specific themes. Here, the teachings associated with the Lamp of the Flesh-Heart (tsitta sha’i sgron ma) actually make up what is known as the “key point of the inner arising of natural Awareness.” The Lamp of the Flesh-Heart is thus to be understood as a Base (gzhi) from which Awareness naturally arises.
Malcolm
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Re: The tsön gang

Post by Malcolm »

James Sealy wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:31 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:33 pm
James Sealy wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 pm So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.
This is an error of interpretation. The sgron ma gdrug gi gdams pa clearly explains the difference between the tsi ta and the heart, lungs, and so on in section nya, the lamp of the soft white channel, where it explains the anatomy and formation of the channels and cakras. It's a brief section, and it is really quite clear in disambiguating the tsi ta from the heart, etc.

Well in all the Bön texts i have in my library, is mentioned that the Tsitta is similar to the flesh heart, and then it would be for Bönpos a fact.
====================
6 Lamps of the Bön tradition
The teachings associated with each Lamp form a key point (gnad) in themselves, dealing with specific themes. Here, the teachings associated with the Lamp of the Flesh-Heart (tsitta sha’i sgron ma) actually make up what is known as the “key point of the inner arising of natural Awareness.” The Lamp of the Flesh-Heart is thus to be understood as a Base (gzhi) from which Awareness naturally arises.
We already resolved this above.
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