Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

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Mdg137
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Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by Mdg137 »

Hello all, I came to ask about an experience I have had and wondered if any of you have had a similar experience or can offer some guidance.

Recently, I had the longest of what I will call "moments of Shinjin". In these moments, I have some level of assurance in my mind that I will indeed be born into the Pure Land. I can think of examples of Amida's working in my life. Finally, one of the most insightful things that occurred was that I looked back on my past actions, especially ones of which I am ashamed, and I realized that I am neither a monster (a view which generates shame), nor am I a great person or a sage (a standard which I constantly fall short of, causing more shame). I am "only human". I realized the guilt I feel from those actions in this context is silly.

I joyfully said the Nembutsu during this time as well, and I felt embraced by Amida.

However, I did worry about this experience ending. Silly thing to do I know, because experiences tend to end, but I worried anyway. I worried if I did, or thought anything unskillful that it would taint it, despite the fact that Shinjin is diamondlike and cannot be broken. I reminded myself of this and this worry subsided, but it came back again, and this cycle repeated a couple times.

A day later, and these feelings have departed, and I am back to doubting. Part of what brought this on (I think) was me just telling myself that I was going to the Pure Land after a moment of insight while reading a Shin Dharma Talk. Overall, I am very confused by this whole experience (even though I think it is a good sign). I do think that I still have some doubts that are in the way, but everything I have read states that these doubts cannot be alleviated using my own power. Furthermore, I feel odd reciting the Nembutsu in light of this experience, as I feel like any recitation I do now is of self-power and no longer in gratitude to Amida. Yet I still recite because when I do, I feel like I am with Amida in that moment. It isn't like I'm doing anything except reciting and thinking about Amida, and yet there is still a clear positive effect. I still want/have the urge to recite it.

Like I said, I think this is a good sign. I think the only problem is my overthinking mind and my confusion. Can anyone here assist in helping me understand?

Namu Amida Butsu
Wannabuddha
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by Wannabuddha »

This has happened to me three times in the last few months. I feel my doubts die down to almost nothing, I feel peaceful and blissful, and I think "Is this shinjin? Is this shinjin?" But then it occurs to me that a person knows shinjin when it happens, and isn't doubtful about it. And soon the ordinary doubts come back, and I know that what happened wasn't shinjin.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Yes, experiences, thoughts, feelings all come and go (impermanence), are characterized by clinging/aversion (suffering), and are devoid of an enduring essence we can rely on (emptiness).

When I was a Shin Buddhist, I also thought I'd experienced shinjin.
I had periods where doubts or anxieties were absent, with a sense of the kindness of Amida Buddha, and other beneficial experiences.
Happiness and benefits associated with practice are precious.

However, the dissatisfaction of living, the disturbing unsubdued mind, doesn't stop following you so long as you have a human body and mind.
Honen said that people sometimes confuse a sincere heart of faith with the ardent heart, where your hair stands on end or tears of joy flow.
He wrote that these may or may not have to do with a sincere heart.
He rather told us to rely on long-term continuous practice, from the moment of deciding to go to the Pure Land, until we actually do so.

From what I understand of Shinran, whether you have shinjin or not, you recite nembutsu.
And you recite nembutsu before awakening shinjin and after having awakened shinjin.

There's sometimes the possibility to equate nembutsu with grateful feelings, or to narrow the types of thoughts/feelings that are acceptable with nembutsu, such as avoiding worry or loss.

Daily routines are very helpful, where you always recite nembutsu when you do certain things.
When waking up in the morning and going to bed, recite 10 nembutsu.
When brushing your teeth, think nembutsu is good speech.
When making food, think nembutsu will feed me, too.
When going through the door, think I may die in an instant anywhere, and recite 10 nembutsu.
This way, some nembutsu are not associated with memories or the day's feelings. That can be instructive, too.

I think time and continuing to recite nembutsu were the only option for me.
If you have a mind that is inclined to feel doubt, depression, loss, nembutsu may or may not lessen that. But if you grow the sense that nembutsu is the next best thing to do in more situations, that's a kind of awakening of faith, too.
Namu Amida Butsu
Mdg137
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by Mdg137 »

Thank you both for your responses. It is nice to see this is something that has happened with others as well (at least in the sense that I am not alone, I don't wish the confusion on anyone though).

Bringing up Impermanence is humbling for me, especially because it is advice I have tried to apply for myself and have tried to utilize to help others, and yet it seems I cannot take my own advice to heart. I also appreciate the reference to Honen and confusion between the sincere heart and the ardent heart, as this reflects exactly my experience.

I resolved earlier today to pursue a very similar solution to what you said, Myoan, which is basically to acknowledge that clearly I am confused, and my confusion prevents my genuine deep listening to the Dharma. I get so wrapped up if I am interpreting correctly, asking why I have these doubts and how I can get rid of them to receive Shinjin (which is in itself wrong since if I could remove doubt as a way to Shinjin, that would be a self-power practice!) So, to rectify this, I will be mindful of the Vow and how it applies to confused beings like me. And when I don't know what to do or think, or if I become confused regarding the Dharma, I will just recite the Nembutsu and ask a teacher if one is available. Recitation seems to have the effect that my mind is brought back to Amida and the Vow, and this leads me to remind myself that Amida ferries beings like me to the Pure Land, even if I have doubts about it. I know I cannot remove all doubt anyway, only Amida can do that. So like you said, I will rely on faith in the Nembutsu and continue to listen to the Dharma, and especially recite whenever I am confused by it. In other words, exactly what you said at the end of your post.

Since I am clearly confused often, I suspect this means I will have a very high daily recitation count, so there's that :lol: As for routine, I like these ideas, especially the food one. The Nembutsu is a kind of spiritual nourishment for me at this point, and it really always has been. My confusion just gets in the way and leads me to go hungry sometimes.

Namu Amida Butsu
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bowsamic
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by bowsamic »

This is my own personal opinion, not Shinran's teaching exactly, but I want to say it anyway, because for me it is helpful.

The only doubt that is relevant to shinjin, is doubt in the vow.

Everything else is actually "good". Your doubt in yourself, your self-hate, even your doubt in whether or not you have attained shinjin. All of these are themselves reminders that you are the special target of Amida's vow. You should not even see it as a goal to be rid of defilements or poisons, because they remind you of your need for going forth to the Pure Land.

For me, the feedback loop of general doubt arising, seeing that this doubt makes you the target of the vow, and then your renewed faith in the vow, culminating in the utterance of "Namo Amida Butsu", is the heart of Jodo Shinshu. In this way, the vow is a kind of alchemy that transmutes doubt and hate into faith.

The important part is realising that this vow is especially for beings with problems.

From the Tannisho:

"When I carefully consider the matter, my birth in the Pure Land is settled without doubt for the very reason that I do not rejoice about that which I should be bursting with joy. It is the working of blind passion, which suppresses the heart that would rejoice and prevents its fullest expression. All this the Buddha already knew and called us foolish beings filled with blind passion. Thus, when we realize that the compassionate Vow of Other Power is for beings like ourselves, the Vow becomes even more reliable and dependable."
To be or not to be, that is the question…
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

bowsamic wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:26 am This is my own personal opinion, not Shinran's teaching exactly, but I want to say it anyway, because for me it is helpful.

The only doubt that is relevant to shinjin, is doubt in the vow.

Everything else is actually "good". Your doubt in yourself, your self-hate, even your doubt in whether or not you have attained shinjin. All of these are themselves reminders that you are the special target of Amida's vow. You should not even see it as a goal to be rid of defilements or poisons, because they remind you of your need for going forth to the Pure Land.

For me, the feedback loop of general doubt arising, seeing that this doubt makes you the target of the vow, and then your renewed faith in the vow, culminating in the utterance of "Namo Amida Butsu", is the heart of Jodo Shinshu. In this way, the vow is a kind of alchemy that transmutes doubt and hate into faith.

The important part is realising that this vow is especially for beings with problems.

From the Tannisho:

"When I carefully consider the matter, my birth in the Pure Land is settled without doubt for the very reason that I do not rejoice about that which I should be bursting with joy. It is the working of blind passion, which suppresses the heart that would rejoice and prevents its fullest expression. All this the Buddha already knew and called us foolish beings filled with blind passion. Thus, when we realize that the compassionate Vow of Other Power is for beings like ourselves, the Vow becomes even more reliable and dependable."
For me Faith is a process of rediscovery again and again
heartagramadios
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by heartagramadios »

I have a question (or multiple related questions, rather). Is there any way to know for certain that one has obtained Shinjin? Is there anything a person who isn't certain should do, or is it better not to worry about it?

I personally struggle to feel certain that my beliefs are sincere; I've struggled this way long before I began worshiping Amida Buddha. I know that this present existence as a human is an exceedingly rare opportunity to obtain Shinjin and be saved by Amida, so part of me feels as if I shouldn't sit on my hands and be complacent (in regards to these doubts); but, I also know that it isn't through self-power that one obtains Shinjin - hence, these two conflicting thoughts leading to my confusion.

I say the nembutsu every day, but when I say the nembutsu, I feel more as if I am continually asking Amida to save me, rather than thanking him for having saved me already. Is this normal? Should I try not to focus on my own insecurities so much?

Thanks for reading, and I apologize if anything I said is incoherent or confusing. Namu Amida Butsu :anjali:
Last edited by heartagramadios on Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Rinkaian Jodo Shu Temple answered a question about non-retrogression which I think is similar to your question:
Ven. Kasahara wrote:When you continue to say Nembutsu every day, you may sometimes think that your practice and faith have become a matter of course, and that you are already in the state of no return. However, it is Amida Buddha who decides whether or not you will be able to be born in the Pure Land, and I don’t think it is good for you to think about such a point of no return.
I say so because thinking “I’ve already reached that point” or “I don’t think I’ve reached that point yet” or “Has s/he already reached that point?” will only deepen your confusion.

You should not pretend to be judges. Please come back to Ichimai Kishomon (the One-Sheet Document). You should entrust yourself to Amida and just chant Nembutsu.

Namu Amida Butsu.
---
Is there anything a person who isn't certain should do, or is it better not to worry about it?
There are some very good Shin suggestions in this Reddit thread. Shin practice life can be very rich, with hearing the Dharma, reading Shinran and Rennyo's letters, meeting with other practitioners and learning from each other...

I also found this reply earlier in the thread to be very pithy and true. It reflects how my own anxiety and depression have become "useful" for nembutsu practice.
bowsamic wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:26 amThe only doubt that is relevant to shinjin, is doubt in the vow.

Everything else is actually "good". Your doubt in yourself, your self-hate, even your doubt in whether or not you have attained shinjin. All of these are themselves reminders that you are the special target of Amida's vow. You should not even see it as a goal to be rid of defilements or poisons, because they remind you of your need for going forth to the Pure Land.

For me, the feedback loop of general doubt arising, seeing that this doubt makes you the target of the vow, and then your renewed faith in the vow, culminating in the utterance of "Namo Amida Butsu", is the heart of Jodo Shinshu. In this way, the vow is a kind of alchemy that transmutes doubt and hate into faith.

The important part is realising that this vow is especially for beings with problems.

From the Tannisho:

"When I carefully consider the matter, my birth in the Pure Land is settled without doubt for the very reason that I do not rejoice about that which I should be bursting with joy. It is the working of blind passion, which suppresses the heart that would rejoice and prevents its fullest expression. All this the Buddha already knew and called us foolish beings filled with blind passion. Thus, when we realize that the compassionate Vow of Other Power is for beings like ourselves, the Vow becomes even more reliable and dependable."
---

And to your other question:
I feel more as if I am continually asking Amida to save me, rather than thanking him for having saved me already. Is this normal?
Interestingly, Honen Shonin, Shinran's teacher and master, taught that the nembutsu is reciting "Namu Amida Bu" as though praying "Save me, Amida Buddha!" Of course, Honen's emphasis was the Three Minds (sincerity, faith, aspiration for birth), which are expressed by such a prayer, which slightly differs from Shinran's emphasis of shinjin.
For both masters, the issue of our birth is settled by the nembutsu of an ordinary person, who naturally has an ordinary understanding and the obstacles of an ordinary mind.

As well, just like Shinran's statement above, Honen said it was natural to occasionally feel worry about one's birth until we're actually sitting on the lotuses in the Pure Land. This is just the nature of our minds, having to endure the ripening of past karmas against our wishes.
Such beings are nonetheless able to practice nembutsu, to enjoy the close relationship with Amida Buddha now, and to be born in the Pure Land in the next life.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Zhen Li
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by Zhen Li »

:good:
I like Myoan's replies, but let me add a couple of things.
明安 Myoan wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 4:39 pm For both masters, the issue of our birth is settled by the nembutsu of an ordinary person, who naturally has an ordinary understanding and the obstacles of an ordinary mind.
For Shinran, I think it is safe to say that birth is settled by Shinjin. I recall Honen expressing the same matter as one of: if one is not free of doubt, one cannot be born. Precisely how we think of the Nembutsu before and thereafter does differ, I think. As you said, Honen supports the idea of thinking of it in a petitionary way, whereas Shinran and the Shin sect see it as a statement of gratitude.
heartagramadios wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:38 pm Is there any way to know for certain that one has obtained Shinjin?
Yes. Ask yourself these questions:
  • Do you know that Amida Buddha abides in his Pure Land and has guaranteed your birth there by the power of his Primal Vow?
  • Do you wish to be born in his Pure Land (i.e. do you accept his helping hand)?
  • Have you said Amida's name even ten times?
If your answer to these questions is yes, then you have Shinjin.
heartagramadios wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:38 pm Is there anything a person who isn't certain should do, or is it better not to worry about it?
Listen to the Dharma more and ask questions of the teacher (It would be ideal to find a teacher you can rely on for these matters as a "good friend"). Since it's a matter of birth in the Pure Land, focus on learning the Pure Land Dharma and listening to Pure Land teachings. Set aside other teachings for now, and just spend time to deeply focus on the Pure Land teachings.
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

:good: Thanks for the info, Zhen Li. I was hoping you'd post!
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heartagramadios
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by heartagramadios »

Myoan and Zhen Li, thank you for sharing such helpful and invigorating insights. May the Buddha's infinite light of compassion shine on you always.

Namu Amida Butsu :anjali:
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Re: Had what I call "a moment of Shinjin" but now it seems to be missing?

Post by truthb »

Had that many times.

I believe Shinran reffered to it as "unsettled shinjin".

Whereas as talks about fuffilled Shinjin as "Diamond-like" clarity or "definitely settled."
Based on The Lotus Sutra, it is my conviction that each person who is reading this will INEVITABLY become a Fully Realized Buddha.
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