Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

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Mdg137
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Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Mdg137 »

Hello all,

One thing that I am finding confusing while reading through Shinran's writings and the writings of his disciples and of the 7 Patriarchs is the use of the phrase "entrust yourself (to the Primal Vow)". It seems this phrase is synonymous with the receipt of Shinjin, as it says for example, in Chapter 2 of KGSS many times that one who entrusts themselves to the Vow immediately enters the stage of the definitely settled. This seems to be a characteristic of Shinjin as I understand it.

However, Shinjin is given by Amida to us. It is Other-Power working through us, right? But the phrase "entrust yourself" seems to indicate an act on behalf of the practicer here. It would seem from a naive perspective that it is something that one does to get to the Pure Land, but this phrasing implies Self-Power.

On the other hand, as I reflect on Tannisho 13, we don't do anything without karmic cause. I could understand this seeming contradiction by saying that exposure to the Pure Land Dharma and the Vow is the cause for Amida's working within us, and that the act of entrusting ourselves (which is naively seen to be "our" action at first), is actually part of that working. But I have no idea if this is correct or not, which is why I'm bouncing it around here.

I also know that there is a metaphor that is talked about in Jodo Shinshu regarding Shinjin: In a dark room, it is difficult to see anything, and your small flashlight cannot light up even a small space in it. By opening the curtains on the window however, sunlight illuminates the entire room at once. The flashlight is your own Self-Power ability, which is not enough to light up the room no matter what. The sunlight is Shinjin, which in this metaphor is reality as it is (the sunlight was always there, even if we couldn't see it), and the act of opening the curtains is like making ourselves more conducive to receiving Shinjin (through, for example, deep hearing or saying the Nembutsu prior to Shinjin). Could it also be said that the act on the part of the practicer to entrust themselves to the Vow is like opening the curtains in this metaphor?

Folks on this forum have been great in responding with well-sourced answers to questions of mine in the past, so I figured I'd come here with this question to see what y'all make of it. Any help or clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Namu Amida Butsu.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Zhen Li »

I think you have the right idea. Active entrusting by oneself is essentially something that fits into the category of the 19th or 20th vow. To actively aspire for birth lays the groundwork and conditions for receiving Shinjin, which is entrustment in the 18th vow.
Mdg137
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Mdg137 »

Ah I see. The True entrusting which puts one in the definitely settled stage must be a part of Shinjin then, and the ability to receive it is the ability to "entrust oneself", as that phrasing is used. Thank you. I suppose for now I will just keep saying the Name in gratitude as best as I can, and listening to the Dharma. Jodo Shinshu is very subtle: I know there is no way for me to bring about Shinjin, yet I keep falling into the trap of trying! The Self-Power mindset is difficult to unlearn.

Namu Amida Butsu
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

What helped me enormously and decisively was having a realised teacher/master and a sangha

Then it became a process working in that environment

Of deep mind karma and amida
Mdg137
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Mdg137 »

Agreed, the "good teacher" makes a prominent appearance in most Shin writings. I actually found a wonderful virtual sangha (West LA Buddhist Temple of the BCA). Virtual is ideal for me since it is difficult to get to the NYC temple from my Long Island home and also this temple has both the sermon-type Dharma messages and a Dharma discussion group right after where you can ask questions and discuss with the reverend. Having a community of any kind, virtual or in person, is a million times better than doing this alone.
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Mdg137 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:34 pm Agreed, the "good teacher" makes a prominent appearance in most Shin writings. I actually found a wonderful virtual sangha (West LA Buddhist Temple of the BCA). Virtual is ideal for me since it is difficult to get to the NYC temple from my Long Island home and also this temple has both the sermon-type Dharma messages and a Dharma discussion group right after where you can ask questions and discuss with the reverend. Having a community of any kind, virtual or in person, is a million times better than doing this alone.
I think Faith transmission is essential not such a popular opinion on here though :mrgreen:
Mdg137
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Mdg137 »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:36 pm
Mdg137 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:34 pm Agreed, the "good teacher" makes a prominent appearance in most Shin writings. I actually found a wonderful virtual sangha (West LA Buddhist Temple of the BCA). Virtual is ideal for me since it is difficult to get to the NYC temple from my Long Island home and also this temple has both the sermon-type Dharma messages and a Dharma discussion group right after where you can ask questions and discuss with the reverend. Having a community of any kind, virtual or in person, is a million times better than doing this alone.
I think Faith transmission is essential not such a popular opinion on here though :mrgreen:
I suppose though it is just one way that the working of Amida can come through to a person right? Shinjin is said to be spontaneous, and most probably arises when conditions are ripe for it (this is according to answers to my previous questions on this sub-forum). I would assume then that having someone of Shinjin to talk to would be a very favorable condition for Shinjin to arise within the practicer. It may not be the only condition that can give rise to it, but it is a good one to have, I would assume. After all, from what I have read and learned, contact with the Primal Vow is the beginning of the process, and talking to a person of Shinjin would be one way to make that contact.
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Mdg137 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:43 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:36 pm
Mdg137 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:34 pm Agreed, the "good teacher" makes a prominent appearance in most Shin writings. I actually found a wonderful virtual sangha (West LA Buddhist Temple of the BCA). Virtual is ideal for me since it is difficult to get to the NYC temple from my Long Island home and also this temple has both the sermon-type Dharma messages and a Dharma discussion group right after where you can ask questions and discuss with the reverend. Having a community of any kind, virtual or in person, is a million times better than doing this alone.
I think Faith transmission is essential not such a popular opinion on here though :mrgreen:
I suppose though it is just one way that the working of Amida can come through to a person right? Shinjin is said to be spontaneous, and most probably arises when conditions are ripe for it (this is according to answers to my previous questions on this sub-forum). I would assume then that having someone of Shinjin to talk to would be a very favorable condition for Shinjin to arise within the practicer. It may not be the only condition that can give rise to it, but it is a good one to have, I would assume. After all, from what I have read and learned, contact with the Primal Vow is the beginning of the process, and talking to a person of Shinjin would be one way to make that contact.
Yes from my experience its the interplay of karmic reality and Amida the Vow is just his working so in the environment of Sangha this is all happening and the teacher knows what to do.

What you need is to get the Vow active

We used to recite Shoshinge everyday this was considered very helpful
Mdg137
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Mdg137 »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:54 pm
Mdg137 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:43 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:36 pm
I think Faith transmission is essential not such a popular opinion on here though :mrgreen:
I suppose though it is just one way that the working of Amida can come through to a person right? Shinjin is said to be spontaneous, and most probably arises when conditions are ripe for it (this is according to answers to my previous questions on this sub-forum). I would assume then that having someone of Shinjin to talk to would be a very favorable condition for Shinjin to arise within the practicer. It may not be the only condition that can give rise to it, but it is a good one to have, I would assume. After all, from what I have read and learned, contact with the Primal Vow is the beginning of the process, and talking to a person of Shinjin would be one way to make that contact.
Yes from my experience its the interplay of karmic reality and Amida the Vow is just his working so in the environment of Sangha this is all happening and the teacher knows what to do.

What you need is to get the Vow active

We used to recite Shoshinge everyday this was considered very helpful
When you recited the Shoshinge, was it in Japanese? Did you understand it when reciting? Or was the working effective even if you didn’t understand it? I was thinking of doing daily practice in English myself and then when practicing with the Sangha obviously they do it in Japanese, so English practice myself would help to solidify the meaning.
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Mdg137 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:06 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:54 pm
Mdg137 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:43 pm

I suppose though it is just one way that the working of Amida can come through to a person right? Shinjin is said to be spontaneous, and most probably arises when conditions are ripe for it (this is according to answers to my previous questions on this sub-forum). I would assume then that having someone of Shinjin to talk to would be a very favorable condition for Shinjin to arise within the practicer. It may not be the only condition that can give rise to it, but it is a good one to have, I would assume. After all, from what I have read and learned, contact with the Primal Vow is the beginning of the process, and talking to a person of Shinjin would be one way to make that contact.
Yes from my experience its the interplay of karmic reality and Amida the Vow is just his working so in the environment of Sangha this is all happening and the teacher knows what to do.

What you need is to get the Vow active

We used to recite Shoshinge everyday this was considered very helpful
When you recited the Shoshinge, was it in Japanese? Did you understand it when reciting? Or was the working effective even if you didn’t understand it? I was thinking of doing daily practice in English myself and then when practicing with the Sangha obviously they do it in Japanese, so English practice myself would help to solidify the meaning.
In Japanese no working is true working is non conceptual anyway
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Wannabuddha »

Being physically part of a sangha is impossible for me, given geography and my health conditions. And as for "virtual participation", I'm not sure what this entails beyond watching videos of services and interacting with a minister by email. That's what I do now. If that kind of interaction isn't good enough, I guess I'm screwed. But I've read of people who realized shinjin after merely corresponding my mail with another person of shinjin.

I'm starting to be skeptical of people's roadmaps to shinjin. I've collected a lot of contradictory advice from various sources, and my teacher has told me flatly that it's wrong to see any particular course of action as a prerequisite for attaining shinjin. It seems like people are brought to shinjin by a route consistent with their character and circumstances. Then they look back, consider what events preceded their realization of shinjin, and treat that as a roadmap for everybody. But this is procrustean and ignores people's differences. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Shinran himself never provided anything like a roadmap or recipe for shinjin. He just said that shinjin arises.
Mdg137
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Mdg137 »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:51 pm Being physically part of a sangha is impossible for me, given geography and my health conditions. And as for "virtual participation", I'm not sure what this entails beyond watching videos of services and interacting with a minister by email. That's what I do now. If that kind of interaction isn't good enough, I guess I'm screwed. But I've read of people who realized shinjin after merely corresponding my mail with another person of shinjin.

I'm starting to be skeptical of people's roadmaps to shinjin. I've collected a lot of contradictory advice from various sources, and my teacher has told me flatly that it's wrong to see any particular course of action as a prerequisite for attaining shinjin. It seems like people are brought to shinjin by a route consistent with their character and circumstances. Then they look back, consider what events preceded their realization of shinjin, and treat that as a roadmap for everybody. But this is procrustean and ignores people's differences. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Shinran himself never provided anything like a roadmap or recipe for shinjin. He just said that shinjin arises.
I don’t think you’re screwed at all. Isn’t the point of having a good teacher to ask clarifying questions? I do the same thing and gain a lot of insight communicating by text on this forum. As for roadmaps, I actually asked a similar question previously on here as a follow up to a question about the Tannisho. The answer given was basically just that while Shinran took one route which he described in KGSS, others don’t need to go that route, and everyone’s karma is different so everyone’s journey to the Primal Vow will be as well.

In addition, based on what I’m reading in KGSS, a prominent characteristic of Amida’s light is that it is unhindered. Based on that, I can’t imagine it would be hampered by electronic communication as opposed to in-person.
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Re: Question on "Entrust yourself" vs. Shinjin

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:51 pm Being physically part of a sangha is impossible for me, given geography and my health conditions. And as for "virtual participation", I'm not sure what this entails beyond watching videos of services and interacting with a minister by email. That's what I do now. If that kind of interaction isn't good enough, I guess I'm screwed. But I've read of people who realized shinjin after merely corresponding my mail with another person of shinjin.

I'm starting to be skeptical of people's roadmaps to shinjin. I've collected a lot of contradictory advice from various sources, and my teacher has told me flatly that it's wrong to see any particular course of action as a prerequisite for attaining shinjin. It seems like people are brought to shinjin by a route consistent with their character and circumstances. Then they look back, consider what events preceded their realization of shinjin, and treat that as a roadmap for everybody. But this is procrustean and ignores people's differences. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Shinran himself never provided anything like a roadmap or recipe for shinjin. He just said that shinjin arises.
Procrustean is a good point I never thought of it. There is the for me alone aspect with Amida so it depends on individual karma how the pathway manifests.

You're probably in a strong position in that you are part of a sangha ask your teacher honestly about it as it's really important for you. I'm sure you'll be fine 🙂

Don't listen to me I'm just a fraud who says the nembutsu now and again
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