Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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muni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

The Little Song of Do As You Please. :namaste:
Giovanni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Giovanni »

muni wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:41 am The Little Song of Do As You Please. :namaste:
I don’t understand. What teaching is this from ?
oldbob
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:



:heart:
Giovanni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Giovanni »

Thank you oldbob.. :anjali:
Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:07 pm

Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid (rig pa), because concepts don't go there.
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there. That’s the point.. BTW, sems nyid is just a contraction of sems kyi chos nyid.
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there.
Concepts arise due to ma rig pa.
The Ever Present Tilaka (Thig le kun gsal) states:

Mind and pristine consciousness,
are neither the same nor different.
They are phenomena that are difficult to differentiate.
The mind is the potential of pristine consciousness.
The basis of the mind is pristine consciousness.
Therefore, since mind and pristine consciousness
are both the same and different,
there is so-called liberation and nonliberation.



Longchenpa comments:

Since the radiance of vidyā in the heart center is moved by the horse of the karma vāyu, its potential arises as concepts, arising as the path of deluded samsāra because of ignorance.


Checkmate.
Zoey85
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Zoey85 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:34 pm

The Ever Present Tilaka (Thig le kun gsal) states:

Mind and pristine consciousness,
are neither the same nor different.
They are phenomena that are difficult to differentiate.
The mind is the potential of pristine consciousness.
The basis of the mind is pristine consciousness.
Therefore, since mind and pristine consciousness
are both the same and different,
there is so-called liberation and nonliberation.

Yep. :applause:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

The view that there is a conceptual mind to somehow get rid of, avoid, alter or change is the view of the Two Accumulations, not the Dzogchen view. I don’t know about anyone else, but I certainly am not in the View 24/7.

So, sometimes the Two Accumulations is useful as a kind of strategy for sure, but holding onto it as a definitive view I can only imagine is a direct impediment to the Dzogchen view, which in turn is an impediment to recognition, resolving doubts, and the whole shebang.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Tao wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:12 am
muni wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:27 am How matter I try to see, there is no way to form concepts without grasping and so believing thoughts as being me, mine...
It can. But after recognition of own nature or rigpa (Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

But "you" dont form them, they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
Yes, that sounds about right. :smile:

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind: habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu) - all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled; without grasping or rejecting.

After all, samsara is only a mistaken habit.

:anjali:
:heart:
Last edited by Jules 09 on Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:17 pm
Tao wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:12 am
muni wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:27 am How matter I try to see, there is no way to form concepts without grasping and so believing thoughts as being me, mine...
It can. But after recognition of own nature or rigpa (Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

But "you" dont form them, they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
Yes, that sounds about right. :smile:

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind: habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu) - all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled; without grasping or rejecting.
Really? You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa? But that means you are engaging in conceptual proliferation. So you are contradicting yourself (again).
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:36 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:17 pm
Tao wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:12 am

It can. But after recognition of own nature or rigpa (Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

But "you" dont form them, they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
Yes, that sounds about right. :smile:

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind: habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu) - all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled; without grasping or rejecting.
Really? You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa? But that means you are engaging in conceptual proliferation. So you are contradicting yourself (again).
You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa?
No, you have misinterpreted and misrepresented what I wrote. :zzz:
Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:36 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:17 pm



Yes, that sounds about right. :smile:

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind: habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu) - all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled; without grasping or rejecting.
Really? You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa? But that means you are engaging in conceptual proliferation. So you are contradicting yourself (again).
You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa?
No, you have misinterpreted and misrepresented what I wrote. :zzz:
No, I didn't. Write more clearly or get an editor. For example, had you written this, it would have been more clear.

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind—all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled, such as habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu), and so on—without grasping or rejecting.

The thing is that traces don't get labeled, nor does karma, etc. They do not appear to mind as objects of cognition, since they belong to the ālayavijñana, which itself is not a cognizing consciousness. What gets labelled is second order impressions, the objects of the manovijñanadhātu. The five sense consciousness are nonconceptual by nature.
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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:11 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:36 pm

Really? You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa? But that means you are engaging in conceptual proliferation. So you are contradicting yourself (again).
You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa?
No, you have misinterpreted and misrepresented what I wrote. :zzz:
No, I didn't. Write more clearly or get an editor. For example, had you written this, it would have been more clear.

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind—all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled, such as habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu), and so on—without grasping or rejecting.

The thing is that traces don't get labeled, nor does karma, etc. They do not appear to mind as objects of cognition, since they belong to the ālayavijñana, which itself is not a cognizing consciousness. What gets labelled is second order impressions, the objects of the manovijñanadhātu. The five sense consciousness are nonconceptual by nature.
If explaining it to yourself in that way works for you in practice, then that is fine.

:anjali:
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:17 pm
Tao wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:12 am
muni wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:27 am How matter I try to see, there is no way to form concepts without grasping and so believing thoughts as being me, mine...
It can. But after recognition of own nature or rigpa (Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

But "you" dont form them, they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
Yes, that sounds about right. :smile:

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind: habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu) - all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled; without grasping or rejecting.

After all, samsara is only a mistaken habit.

:anjali:
:heart:
The display is not separate from the lucidity, that’s a nearly direct quote from a few teachings.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:35 pm
If explaining it to yourself in that way works for you in practice, then that is fine.

:anjali:
I explain things according to the Dharma, not my own fabrications.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:43 am
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:35 pm
If explaining it to yourself in that way works for you in practice, then that is fine.

:anjali:
I explain things according to the Dharma, not my own fabrications.

Within the themes of Dharma; I agree, for the most part.

With political matters, not so much
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:43 am
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:35 pm
If explaining it to yourself in that way works for you in practice, then that is fine.

:anjali:
I explain things according to the Dharma, not my own fabrications.
The 'law' of the Dharma?
It's all fabrication.

Sweet dreams. :heart:

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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:52 am
It's all fabrication.
Since, according to you, it is all fabrication, there is no reason at all that concepts cannot be present when resting in rig pa, since even "rig pa" is a fabrication, and not something established as real. So once again, you hoist yourself on your own pitard.

"For one whom emptiness is possible, everything is possible."
-- Nāgārjuna
muni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

It is said since what we accept, because learned so to be, that is itself a fabrication, therefore there is need of help by same fabricated nature to come out of that. Even these themselves are not liberating and can as well become new objects to cling to.

The written Dharma is pointing, it is not the written Dharma itself or the pointing itself what need to be known. Fellows here know that. But I as a stupid old woman, would be silent. Since I would knock with the wooden guideposts on the way of liberation, to get it right.

Homage to all Masters, all pointing to 'unfabricated natural' nature, being that unfabricated nature.
_/\_
muni
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by muni »

muni wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:55 am It is said since what we accept to be, because we learned so we are, that is itself a fabrication, therefore there is need of help by same fabricated nature to come out of that. Even these themselves are not liberating and can as well become new objects to cling to.

The written Dharma is pointing, it is not the written Dharma itself or the pointing itself what need to be known. Fellows here know that. But I as a stupid old woman, would be silent. Since I would knock with the wooden guideposts "on the way of liberation", to get it right.

Homage to all Masters, all pointing to 'unfabricated natural' nature, being that unfabricated nature.
_/\_
My bad!
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Jules 09
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Jules 09 »

muni wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:39 pm
muni wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:55 am It is said since what we accept to be, because we learned so we are, that is itself a fabrication, therefore there is need of help by same fabricated nature to come out of that. Even these themselves are not liberating and can as well become new objects to cling to.

The written Dharma is pointing, it is not the written Dharma itself or the pointing itself what need to be known. Fellows here know that. But I as a stupid old woman, would be silent. Since I would knock with the wooden guideposts "on the way of liberation", to get it right.

Homage to all Masters, all pointing to 'unfabricated natural' nature, being that unfabricated nature.
_/\_
My bad!
Homage to all Masters, all pointing to 'unfabricated natural' nature, being that unfabricated nature.
Homage to all the Masters that point. :anjali:

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