Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

oldbob
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

From:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 25#p647725

"Turning the wheel is what matters: what helps progress on the path. If intellectual understanding turns your wheel, then pursue it until you are exhausted with words."

And this includes talking about Rigpa - I do it all the time. Still waiting to be exhausted. :smile:

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

oldbob wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:03 pm :namaste:

From:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 25#p647725

"Turning the wheel is what matters: what helps progress on the path. If intellectual understanding turns your wheel, then pursue it until you are exhausted with words."

And this includes talking about Rigpa - I do it all the time. Still waiting to be exhausted. :smile:

:heart:
Well, this is a thing that I would not consider an intellectual pursuit per se. It’s an actual question of practice, as there are specific instructions that explain how to work with different kinds of cognition. So, it’s not just some theoretical philosophical thing. I actually don’t read much philosophy as I don’t really have the mind for it.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

I am also not a philosopher, preferring joyful experience to winning philosophical arguments.

Lorig, in the Tibetan system is the study of mind - how the mind works.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... of-knowing

Abhidharma is the systematic organization of all knowledge / philosophy.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... et-systems

The Khenpos of all Tibetan schools, study these things for years, and years, and so their world view (and what they consider valuable in study / practice) is understandably conditioned by how they have been trained.

So if your teacher, whom I imagine is a learned Khenpo, asks you to observe subtle thought, then you certainly should do exactly as they say and get the benefit. If someone on Dharma Wheel wants to have a conversation on these things then it appears to be a turning of the wheel for you, helping your spiritual progress. If studying / practicing Lorig and Abhidharma make spiritual progress for you, then that is a very good thing.

This may or may not be Dzogchen. Many paths consider the study of Lorig and Abhidharma to be an absolutely necessary preliminary / foundation to the study and practice of Dharma. ChNN did not.

ANYTHING taught by a Dzogchen Master is Dzogchen. Anything from ChNN was more important for me than studying the Kangyur / Tangyur (basic texts and commentaries). So I went to 3-5 long retreats each year from 1982 and did a little practice. Now I can see my hands as light during the day - which is just the same as any experience and to be integrated in Rigpa like everything else. (Maybe I am just a fool, but if so, I am a content fool.)

So Lord Buddha taught the 80,000 Teachings (means a lot) so that there would be something for everyone.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

From the oldfool,

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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:26 pm ChNN did not.
ChNN wanted to set up a Shedra for the five sciences. Of course, one can study Dzogchen without learning Abhidharma, etc., but one will certainly understand its textual systems better by studying their foundation, which include Abhidharma, and so on, since Dzogchen tantras spend a great deal of time analyzing and discussing various tenet systems for their faults and qualities. So in order to improve people's knowledge so they could understand Dzogchen teachings better, he wanted a place where they could learn these things. He and I discussed this several times.

Those who claim that their knowledge and understanding of Dzogchen won't be improved by studying lower yānas don't really understand Dzogchen very well.

For example, he always began every introductory teaching with the "five capacities." Pop quiz: where do the five capacities come from?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

"Many paths consider the study of Lorig and Abhidharma to be an absolutely necessary preliminary / foundation to the study and practice of Dharma. ChNN did not."

https://melong.com/training-the-five-capacities/

There are several other 5 capacities - but this is the one from ChNN on how we train in Dzogchen which includes and is based on the 5 capacities in Sutra.

Dzogchen includes the 9 Yanas which are taught according to the capacity of the individual.

:cheers:

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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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oldbob wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:19 pm :namaste:

"Many paths consider the study of Lorig and Abhidharma to be an absolutely necessary preliminary / foundation to the study and practice of Dharma. ChNN did not."

https://melong.com/training-the-five-capacities/

There are several other 5 capacities - but this is the one from ChNN on how we train in Dzogchen which includes and is based on the 5 capacities in Sutra.

Dzogchen includes the 9 Yanas which are taught according to the capacity of the individual.

:cheers:

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I posted this thread based on Dzogchen instructions and experiences, as well as corresponding instructions in various pith instruction manuals…including In ChNNs Intro to Contemplation. The specific instruction on “subtle cognition” I found clarifying is from a Mahamudra manual, if you want quibble about that.

Either way, the point is that experience of and views towards cognition relates directly to the practice of Dzogchen, and is not some ancillary thing to be dismissed as mere intellectual knowledge - which seems to be your subtext.

If it were, pith instructions etc. on the subject would not exist in Dzogchen semde and Mahamudra, but they do, sometimes prominently. So one need not address larger Buddhist systems of thought, general Buddhist psychology, etc. as Dzogchen instruction itself often addresses cognition in practice, though it seems not always with uniform terms, and in varying degrees of detail.
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Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:19 pm
There are several other 5 capacities - but this is the one from ChNN on how we train in Dzogchen which includes and is based on the 5 capacities in Sutra.
In other words, you know they are found in sutra (and also tantra) but you didn't recall (since I am certain you've learned this somewhere) that these five are part of what are termed "the thirty-seven adjuncts of awakening."

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... ightenment

These things are useful to know, since the Dzogchen tantras describe the path in these general terms as well, though they typically use a more abbreviated form of path description.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:46 pm
I posted this thread based on Dzogchen instructions and experiences...
Bob's afraid that if anyone thought they might have to learn anything new, they'd be frightened away from Dzogchen teachings.

Might as well throw away Longchenpa, whom ChNN described as the ultimate Tibetan authority in Dzogchen teachings.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Without the open warmth and moisture of bodhicitta, there is no genuine Dharma.

Devotion and compassion are vital for a person who wishes to practice Dzogchen.

A famous saying goes: "A closed up person gives rise to no good qualities, just as a scorched seed will never sprout."

Devotion and compassion are indispensable to recognizing the nature of mind when one receives the pointing out instructions.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:57 pm Without the open warmth and moisture of bodhicitta, there is no genuine Dharma.

Devotion and compassion are vital for a person who wishes to practice Dzogchen.

A famous saying goes: "A closed up person gives rise to no good qualities, just as a scorched seed will never sprout."

Devotion and compassion are indispensable to recognizing the nature of mind when one receives the pointing out instructions.
Yes, I’m sure we all practiced and continue to practice these constantly, as they are foundational to any Mahayana practice, let alone Dzogchen. Believe it or not, people can have discussions and contrary opinions while maintaining these things.

I hope you are trying to impugn people’s practice by claiming they are not compassionate because you disagree with them.

If you are, it’s you that should be reflecting on devotion, trust in the teachings, etc.

Devotion of the kind that’s meant here leads to diligence and a desire to better understand the teachings and pursue them for the benefit of all beings, it is not somehow mutually exclusive with learning about or understanding them.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:57 pm
Devotion
That’s not what dad pa, śraddhā, means here. Here, dad pa means “a clear mind with respect to the object.”

It helps to know what technical terms mean in their context, even if one is an aspiring Dzogchen practitioner.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

Dzogchen is unconstructed - not dependent on anything. There are no pop quizzes in Dzogchen. When you are in Rigpa - even the question as to whether you are in Rigpa - doesn't arise. You are relaxed in awareness, and that is enough. Devotion and compassion are the natural display and are unending and unlimited.

The "5 capacities" and "the thirty-seven adjuncts of awakening " are nice to know - but not required.

Pith Instructions on Dzogchen are always useful to read and study. These are useful for practice, whether from ChNN, Mahamudra, Longchenpa or elsewhere. The pith instructions are not just intellectual ideas but help with practice. Certainly it is good to discuss these things on DW in the Dzogchen section, but traditionally, this is done privately because of the ease of misinterpretation from those outside of a practice lineage.

For explanations of Dzogchen, you can't do better than the omniscient Longchenpa and so I have taken 3 Yabshi initiations, and have read whatever I have found. I have also I read and studied the works of the illuminated Jigmed Lingpa, taken the the long Yeshe Lama long Wang, Lung and Tri, etc. and have practiced the Yeshe Lama in retreat.

Personally, I have never been concerned with looking at my cognition, subtle or otherwise. For me it has been, and is, enough to dwell in luminosity, clarity, emptiness and joy, though I never name these as such. I don’t claim any spiritual accomplishments at all and am content to be content.

Personally, I have great respect for the Theravada and have spent 3 months studying in a Burmese Theravada monastery. I have great respect for all of the paths of Buddhism and particularly the Tibetan paths. I have taken initiation and have Teachers in all four schools. I am rimed without a name for my school. I also lived for seven years in a Gelukpa monastery, when I first began my Buddhism, and have great respect for the Lam Rim and the Gelukpa path.

Non-sequitur arguments, and subtle indirect adhominom attacks that misdirect and obfuscate - are power ploys in rhetoric, but have little to little to do anything other than making the obfuscation and misdirection, and venting the spleen. No one is impressed. These are easily recognized, sadly noted and everyone moves on.

I am always interested in learning anything new in Buddhism, and elsewhere, that would advance my practice and so I am now learning about Taoism. It is very interesting as there are many parallels with Buddhist practice.


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Malcolm
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:22 am :namaste:

Dzogchen is unconstructed - not dependent on anything.
That’s true of the basis; but that is not true of the person who is trying to realize the meaning of the basis, a.k.a,the primordial state.

A person needs a path, and they need to understand that path concretely. Your error is in engaging in inflated, grandiose bullshit about Dzogchen, where JD asked a simple question about a mental factor and it’s role in meditation. Maybe it’s better you and Jules quit while you are behind.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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“oldbob” wrote:Personally, I have never been concerned with looking at my cognition, subtle or otherwise. For me it has been, and is, enough to dwell in luminosity, clarity, emptiness and joy, though I never name these as such. I don’t claim any spiritual accomplishments at all and am content to be content.
It’s relevant to me and I feel fine taking about it, if you don’t you don’t need to participate in the thread further. I have had and have Dzogchen teachers other than ChNN and I’m sure they would have no issue with me discussing this.

The thread is voluntary and people who are not interested in it do not need to participate.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:20 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:42 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:59 pm he descrined it in chapter 5, that one has to use an indirect method. He states, either though using a mantra or regular śamatha, one must enter the first dhyāna, aka perfect śamatha, with its five characteristics: vitarka, vicara, pṛti, sukha, and ekagraha (initial attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease, and one pointedness) and do this in the context of having intellectually cultivated Dzogchen view as described in chapter 5. Obviously, one defect is a lot of people mistake the access mental factor, vitarka (rtog pa) for full śamatha.
Why is calm abiding insufficient? And Wouldn't the bliss one experience in first jhana interfere with the cultivation of dzogchen view?
The goal here, as Rongzom says, is absolute mindfulness (dran pa) encompassed by total awareness (shes bzhin).

No, vitarka and vicara are still present, therefor, one can switch objects and so on.

In short then, can it be said that Dzogchen samadhi is simply being as alert and present as possible in all cases? (the usual instructions of "without reference point, don't reject, don't follow, be in the presence of awareness, don't contrive" etc)

How does it differ from shamatha in other vehicles?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:25 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:20 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:42 am

Why is calm abiding insufficient? And Wouldn't the bliss one experience in first jhana interfere with the cultivation of dzogchen view?
The goal here, as Rongzom says, is absolute mindfulness (dran pa) encompassed by total awareness (shes bzhin).

No, vitarka and vicara are still present, therefor, one can switch objects and so on.

In short then, can it be said that Dzogchen samadhi is simply being as alert and present as possible in all cases? (the usual instructions of "without reference point, don't reject, don't follow, be in the presence of awareness, don't contrive" etc)

How does it differ from shamatha in other vehicles?
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen. Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:01 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:25 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:20 pm

The goal here, as Rongzom says, is absolute mindfulness (dran pa) encompassed by total awareness (shes bzhin).

No, vitarka and vicara are still present, therefor, one can switch objects and so on.

In short then, can it be said that Dzogchen samadhi is simply being as alert and present as possible in all cases? (the usual instructions of "without reference point, don't reject, don't follow, be in the presence of awareness, don't contrive" etc)

How does it differ from shamatha in other vehicles?
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen. Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
And how does this shamatha used for this indirect method differ from the shamatha in say, kyerim practice or Theravada?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:01 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:25 am


In short then, can it be said that Dzogchen samadhi is simply being as alert and present as possible in all cases? (the usual instructions of "without reference point, don't reject, don't follow, be in the presence of awareness, don't contrive" etc)

How does it differ from shamatha in other vehicles?
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen. Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
And how does this shamatha used for this indirect method differ from the shamatha in say, kyerim practice or Theravada?
It doesn't, it's exactly the same, other than it is done from the point with the Dzogchen view. You should read chapter 6 in Rongzom's Intro to Mahāyāna Systems, where he describes this in detail. It follows chapter 5, which is a detailed presentation of Dzogchen view based in the sems sde texts.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:55 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:01 pm

This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen. Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.
And how does this shamatha used for this indirect method differ from the shamatha in say, kyerim practice or Theravada?
It doesn't, it's exactly the same, other than it is done from the point with the Dzogchen view. You should read chapter 6 in Rongzom's Intro to Mahāyāna Systems, where he describes this in detail. It follows chapter 5, which is a detailed presentation of Dzogchen view based in the sems sde texts.
Do semde and menngagde differ much in view, path and fruit?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:24 pm Do semde and menngagde differ much in view, path and fruit?
You should consult the Chos dbying mdzod commentary on this. But briefly put, sems sde mainly concerns the basis and man ngag sde mainly concerns the path and result. Klong sde links sems sde and man ngag sde.
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