Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Been reading a few things and this is becoming relevant practice wise. Is this a good definition of rtog pa or am I getting confused?

If you have to be specific, what is the real difference between “coarse” and “subtle” cognition , is it just how it is experienced by the meditator?

This also connects with some of the discussions we have on thought vs. Rigpa, as in some presentations it seems that working with subtle cognition is absolutely vital.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:21 pm Been reading a few things and this is becoming relevant practice wise. Is this a good definition of rtog pa or am I getting confused?

If you have to be specific, what is the real difference between “coarse” and “subtle” cognition , is it just how it is experienced by the meditator?

This also connects with some of the discussions we have on thought vs. Rigpa, as in some presentations it seems that working with subtle cognition is absolutely vital.
You are discussing vitarka (rtog) and vicara (dpyod). These are two mental factors that accompany all desire realm minds. Vitarka, for example, is used to enter dhyāna; vicara sustains it. Some people translate as coarse and subtle, but really it refers to mental factor that allows us to switch objects and then one to sustain our attention on an object.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:50 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:21 pm Been reading a few things and this is becoming relevant practice wise. Is this a good definition of rtog pa or am I getting confused?

If you have to be specific, what is the real difference between “coarse” and “subtle” cognition , is it just how it is experienced by the meditator?

This also connects with some of the discussions we have on thought vs. Rigpa, as in some presentations it seems that working with subtle cognition is absolutely vital.
You are discussing vitarka (rtog) and vicara (dpyod). These are two mental factors that accompany all desire realm minds. Vitarka, for example, is used to enter dhyāna; vicara sustains it. Some people translate as coarse and subtle, but really it refers to mental factor that allows us to switch objects and then one to sustain our attention on an object.
This also connects with some of the discussions we have on thought vs. Rigpa, as in some presentations it seems that working with subtle cognition is absolutely vital.
Some people translate as coarse and subtle, but really it refers to mental factor that allows us to switch objects and then one to sustain our attention on an object.
- Which means that, during Rigpa, Rtog pa is absent.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:50 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:21 pm Been reading a few things and this is becoming relevant practice wise. Is this a good definition of rtog pa or am I getting confused?

If you have to be specific, what is the real difference between “coarse” and “subtle” cognition , is it just how it is experienced by the meditator?

This also connects with some of the discussions we have on thought vs. Rigpa, as in some presentations it seems that working with subtle cognition is absolutely vital.
You are discussing vitarka (rtog) and vicara (dpyod). These are two mental factors that accompany all desire realm minds. Vitarka, for example, is used to enter dhyāna; vicara sustains it. Some people translate as coarse and subtle, but really it refers to mental factor that allows us to switch objects and then one to sustain our attention on an object.
This also connects with some of the discussions we have on thought vs. Rigpa, as in some presentations it seems that working with subtle cognition is absolutely vital.
Some people translate as coarse and subtle, but really it refers to mental factor that allows us to switch objects and then one to sustain our attention on an object.
- Which means that, during Rigpa, Rtog pa is absent.
This is actually not correct, as far as I know. I can supply quotes later, but for instance Tasha Nyamgel cites the ability to recognize subtle cognition as vital to recognition of Rigpa. That is, to truly recognize and stabilize Rigpa, one cannot be ignorant of rtog pa, in fact one has to have precise ability to notice the stream of continuous rtog pa moments and ignoring it or blocking them gets one stuck at an earlier part of the process related to only having awareness of “coarse cognition.” In fact, ones ability to not even notice them keeps practice at the level of shamatha, I think.

Awareness of rtog pa moments is what actually allows one to cease proliferation. Without that proliferation is still happening, one is just not aware of anything but the coarse, surface level. In short, a form of dullness.

Basically, a person cannot stabilize Rigpa proper only through mental stillness. While explained a bit differently, this accords with teachings of ChNN on contemplation. I’m basing this partially on reading and also on direct experience, some of my terminology may be off, but I feel reasonably confident that the idea of cognition being completely absent in Rigpa is absolutely incorrect. It’s also directly contrary to actual instructions in Dzogchen view and meditation I’ve received.

Anyway, this is my present understanding, based on semde/mahamudra approaches, I will post more later.

I will share some quotes when not on a mobile device.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Jules 09 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:04 pm - Which means that, during Rigpa, Rtog pa is absent.

Which mean you have mistaken kalpana (rtog pa), concepts, which we are not talking about here; for vitarka (rtog pa), initial attention, which is what we are talking about here, because you are clearly unfamiliar with the presentation of mind and its mental factors (citta and caittas) and how terms like vitarka and tarka are translated into Tibetan (rtog pa).

The only time rtog pa/vitarka is absent in a sentient being who belongs to the desire realm is when their minds are in equipoise in second dhyāna on up. But since all eight dhyānas are actually conceptually-driven with an object of concentration, dhyāna and rig pa are not alike. Since there is no object in trekcho, it doesn't matter that in this state there exist neutral mental factors such as the mahābhūmikas—samadhi, cetana, and so on—as well as vitarka (rtog pa), vicara, and so on, or positive mental factors, like faith, etc., or even afflicted and negative mental factors. Where there is citta, a mind, there are caittas, mental factors.

In trekcho one is just resting in the direct perception of the sense organs with no particular object to focus upon, that is why any concepts (rtog pa, kalpana) that arise in rig pa automatically vanish without needing to apply an antidote, because sense cognitions are nonconceptual by nature, and mind (manas) isn't chasing any mental factors, concepts, or even uncompounded phenomena as its object in the dharmāyatana. But to claim concepts can never arise while in rig pa's equipoise, this is a very mistaken idea.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:06 pm This is actually not correct, as far as I know. I can supply quotes later, but for instance Tasha Nyamgel cites the ability to recognize subtle cognition as vital to recognition of Rigpa. That is, to truly recognize and stabilize Rigpa, one cannot be ignorant of rtog pa, in fact one has to have precise ability to notice the stream of continuous rtog pa moments and ignoring it or blocking them gets one stuck at an earlier part of the process related to only having awareness of “coarse cognition.” In fact, ones ability to not even notice them keeps practice at the level of shamatha, I think.
Better to use the term vitarka here. Vitarka is the operative mental factor in access concentration. Rongzom states in the chapter 6 of his Intro to Mahāyāna Systems that if one cannot directly discover and be in knowledge of Dzogchen as he descrined it in chapter 5, that one has to use an indirect method. He states, either though using a mantra or regular śamatha, one must enter the first dhyāna, aka perfect śamatha, with its five characteristics: vitarka, vicara, pṛti, sukha, and ekagraha (initial attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease, and one pointedness) and do this in the context of having intellectually cultivated Dzogchen view as described in chapter 5. Obviously, one defect is a lot of people mistake the access mental factor, vitarka (rtog pa) for full śamatha.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:59 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:06 pm This is actually not correct, as far as I know. I can supply quotes later, but for instance Tasha Nyamgel cites the ability to recognize subtle cognition as vital to recognition of Rigpa. That is, to truly recognize and stabilize Rigpa, one cannot be ignorant of rtog pa, in fact one has to have precise ability to notice the stream of continuous rtog pa moments and ignoring it or blocking them gets one stuck at an earlier part of the process related to only having awareness of “coarse cognition.” In fact, ones ability to not even notice them keeps practice at the level of shamatha, I think.
Better to use the term vitarka here. Vitarka is the operative mental factor in access concentration. Rongzom states in the chapter 6 of his Intro to Mahāyāna Systems that if one cannot directly discover and be in knowledge of Dzogchen as he descrined it in chapter 5, that one has to use an indirect method. He states, either though using a mantra or regular śamatha, one must enter the first dhyāna, aka perfect śamatha, with its five characteristics: vitarka, vicara, pṛti, sukha, and ekagraha (initial attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease, and one pointedness) and do this in the context of having intellectually cultivated Dzogchen described in chapter 5. Obviously, one defect is a lot of people mistake the access mental factor, vitarka (rtog pa) for full śamatha.
Thanks, that’s helpful.

Does this method correspond to the sem de and Mahamudra presentations that develop shamatha to a certain point prior to pointing out/introduction?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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To put it another way: Whatever one thinks about Rigpa, is not Rigpa. :smile:
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Jules 09 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:07 pm To put it another way: Whatever one thinks about Rigpa, is not Rigpa. :smile:
That goes without saying, but that is not the issue and never was. If it were we could all just read about Dzogchen, and would never need introduction, ancillary practice, etc.

Instead we have to receive introduction/pointing out and preferably also instructions on clarification and dispelling doubt, etc. from a teacher.

The point is that consigning oneself to ignorance of ones own cognitions is actually, according to some presentations, basically a form of Marigpa.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:20 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:07 pm To put it another way: Whatever one thinks about Rigpa, is not Rigpa. :smile:
That goes without saying, but that is not the issue and never was.
Let me repeat that so you can truly hear it Jules 09; "that is not the issue and never was". :smile:
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:20 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:07 pm To put it another way: Whatever one thinks about Rigpa, is not Rigpa. :smile:
That goes without saying, but that is not the issue and never was. If it were we could all just read about Dzogchen, and would never need introduction, ancillary practice, etc.

Instead we have to receive introduction/pointing out and preferably also instructions on clarification and dispelling doubt, etc. from a teacher.

The point is that consigning oneself to ignorance of ones own cognitions is actually, according to some presentations, basically a form of Marigpa.
we have to receive introduction/pointing out and preferably also instructions on clarification and dispelling doubt, etc. from a teacher.
- Yes indeed. That is probably the best way to find answers to your questions.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:30 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:20 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:07 pm To put it another way: Whatever one thinks about Rigpa, is not Rigpa. :smile:
That goes without saying, but that is not the issue and never was. If it were we could all just read about Dzogchen, and would never need introduction, ancillary practice, etc.

Instead we have to receive introduction/pointing out and preferably also instructions on clarification and dispelling doubt, etc. from a teacher.

The point is that consigning oneself to ignorance of ones own cognitions is actually, according to some presentations, basically a form of Marigpa.
we have to receive introduction/pointing out and preferably also instructions on clarification and dispelling doubt, etc. from a teacher.
- Yes indeed. That is probably the best way to find answers to your questions.
Yes, and you are not a teacher.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:02 pm Does this method correspond to the sem de and Mahamudra presentations that develop shamatha to a certain point prior to pointing out/introduction?
This is one of the sems sde methods, but it occurs after receiving Dzogchen transmission. There are no sems sde methods to develop anything prior to Dzogchen transmission. There is no such thing as "sūtra Dzogchen."
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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I’ve seen/experienced a few different presentations it seems like where there are pointing out via Shamatha prior to anything that looks like DI ala ChNN. For instance in A Tri the only thing that resembles DI to me comes later. Maybe I’m missing some subtle thing about types of transmission.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:59 pm he descrined it in chapter 5, that one has to use an indirect method. He states, either though using a mantra or regular śamatha, one must enter the first dhyāna, aka perfect śamatha, with its five characteristics: vitarka, vicara, pṛti, sukha, and ekagraha (initial attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease, and one pointedness) and do this in the context of having intellectually cultivated Dzogchen view as described in chapter 5. Obviously, one defect is a lot of people mistake the access mental factor, vitarka (rtog pa) for full śamatha.
Why is calm abiding insufficient? And Wouldn't the bliss one experience in first jhana interfere with the cultivation of dzogchen view?
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Kai lord wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:42 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:59 pm he descrined it in chapter 5, that one has to use an indirect method. He states, either though using a mantra or regular śamatha, one must enter the first dhyāna, aka perfect śamatha, with its five characteristics: vitarka, vicara, pṛti, sukha, and ekagraha (initial attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease, and one pointedness) and do this in the context of having intellectually cultivated Dzogchen view as described in chapter 5. Obviously, one defect is a lot of people mistake the access mental factor, vitarka (rtog pa) for full śamatha.
Why is calm abiding insufficient? And Wouldn't the bliss one experience in first jhana interfere with the cultivation of dzogchen view?
The goal here, as Rongzom says, is absolute mindfulness (dran pa) encompassed by total awareness (shes bzhin).

No, vitarka and vicara are still present, therefor, one can switch objects and so on.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:10 am I’ve seen/experienced a few different presentations it seems like where there are pointing out via Shamatha prior to anything that looks like DI ala ChNN. For instance in A Tri the only thing that resembles DI to me comes later. Maybe I’m missing some subtle thing about types of transmission.
One uses experiences as a basis for DI. The experience they are using here is gnas pa, the calm state.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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:namaste:

:good: :bow: All excellent and true posts.

Relaxing in Rigpa - is like "sinking in" to a very comfortable warm tub. You relax into whatever appears or doesn't appear, being just fine "as it is." Nothing blocks Rigpa, not the 40 meditative concentrations, not big thoughts or subtle thoughts. All is included in RIgpa. There is no duality. There is no intentionality - push or pull - towards what appears. The movement of thought (or non-movement of thought) does not disturb Rigpa because Rigpa includes (is) the movement of thoughts (the non-movement of thoughts). Rigpa is the thoughts, gross and subtle - all appearing in a non-dual way, as instant presence.

Whatever appears, is noticed and disappears all in the same instant without comment or reaction. The noticing has no words. Like writing on water or air.

To Rigpa it is all the same - though this is never voiced. All the words / thoughts about Rigpa - are Rigpa. This is the famous "one taste."

Then - if you still need words to talk about RIgpa - there arises the "Vajra Laughs" and the "Amazing Things," and "spontaneously arising" and "pure from the beginning."

All of which is not comprehensible - and easily misunderstood - if you have not truly received (not just attended) a Direct Introduction from a Dzogchen Master.

Having received Direct Introduction, you are free to practice the 100+ Secondary Practices. ChNN taught that the Lung - reading authorization is necessary before doing a practice. Here are two very wise woman explaining why things are secret and why you need Lungs.



https://www.taramandala.org/programs-2/ ... o-sangcho/

Note: Before taking Direct Introduction here are two practices that will help. 1. Watching where thoughts come from, where they abide and where they go is a beginning practice. You can do this for two or three days. 2. Learning the Dzogchen version of concentrating on an object and concentrating without an object. These practices may make entering Rigpa easier.


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Thank you Universe - for the Dzogchen Teachings, and the marvelous Women of Wisdom,

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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Bob, I think everyone in the thread already has Dzogchen transmission, and we all know how central it is. If it’s not a useful conversation for some they shouldn’t participate.

In other words, whether or not it’s useful to talk about Rigpa for someone else really isn’t for you to say, we all have our own special blend of herbs and spices (happy thanksgiving) as obscurations go, and for me these conversations can be clarifying.
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Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:23 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:10 am I’ve seen/experienced a few different presentations it seems like where there are pointing out via Shamatha prior to anything that looks like DI ala ChNN. For instance in A Tri the only thing that resembles DI to me comes later. Maybe I’m missing some subtle thing about types of transmission.
One uses experiences as a basis for DI. The experience they are using here is gnas pa, the calm state.
Thanks, pretty simple and makes sense.
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