Attainments

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Jokingfish
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Attainments

Post by Jokingfish »

Hello, can anyone tell me what was hakuin ekaku attainment when he created his paintings?

What was milarepa's attainment when he wrote songs?

Since im making this thread, I'd also use this opportunity to ask what is boddhidarma's attainment?

Is that possible to say?

Ty.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attainments

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:19 pm Hello, can anyone tell me what was hakuin ekaku attainment when he created his paintings?

What was milarepa's attainment when he wrote songs?

Since im making this thread, I'd also use this opportunity to ask what is boddhidarma's attainment?

Is that possible to say?

Ty.
Painter, song writer, zen master.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Attainments

Post by master of puppets »

If give it a try, they were at the garden of the Buddha. my guess bodhidarma was at the front..

or in a more clear portrayal they both have find their own reason of existence.
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Jokingfish
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Re: Attainments

Post by Jokingfish »

We all know that Gautama Buddha reached nirvana and was arahaht (and further than arahaht, yes?), but are there any other attainment examples of arahants in history after buddha, or at least any stream enterers?
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Jokingfish
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Re: Attainments

Post by Jokingfish »

On attainment of stream entrance, clinging to rituals are destroyed, one of them is chanting, but we see most monks chant, so they don't have the attainment of stream entrance, then?
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Attainments

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Jokingfish wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:02 am On attainment of stream entrance, clinging to rituals are destroyed, one of them is chanting, but we see most monks chant, so they don't have the attainment of stream entrance, then?
Your logic is faulty.
It is perfectly possible to participate in rituals without clinging to them.
:thinking:
Come to think of it, many of us will do exactly that in just under a month when we gather with extended family for Christmas. :tongue:

:coffee:
Kim
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Attainments

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:02 am On attainment of stream entrance, clinging to rituals are destroyed, one of them is chanting, but we see most monks chant, so they don't have the attainment of stream entrance, then?
Having learned to speak a foreign language fluently, does one then think, “well, now that I’ve accomplished that, I won’t speak it any more”?

The various practices are experienced differently depending on one’s level of attainment, and they are expressions of our true, enlightened nature, which we are learning to return to. Chanting, visualizations, basic meditation, these are all true mind. Why would someone abandon true mind?
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Re: Attainments

Post by Aemilius »

Jokingfish wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:50 pm We all know that Gautama Buddha reached nirvana and was arahaht (and further than arahaht, yes?), but are there any other attainment examples of arahants in history after buddha, or at least any stream enterers?
Diamond Sutra; the Perfection of Wisdom, translated by Red Pine

Chapter Twenty-two:

“Subhuti, what do you think?
Did the Tathagata realize any such dharma as
unexcelled, perfect enlightenment?”

The venerable Subhuti replied, “No, indeed, Bhagavan.
The Tathagata did not realize any such dharma,
Bhagavan, as unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.”
The Buddha said, “So it is, Subhuti. So it is. The
slightest dharma is neither obtained nor found therein.
Thus is it called ‘unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.’

Chapter Nine:

“Tell me, Subhuti. Do those who find
the river think, ‘I have attained the goal of finding the
river’?”

Subhuti replied, “No, indeed, Bhagavan. Those who
find the river do not think, ‘I have attained the goal of
finding the river.’ And why not? Bhagavan, they do not
find any such dharma. Thus are they said to ‘find the
river.’ They do not find a sight, nor do they find a
sound, a smell, a taste, a touch, or a dharma. Thus are
they said to ‘find the river.’ Bhagavan, if those who
found the river should think, ‘I have attained the goal
of finding the river,’ they would be attached to a self,
they would be attached to a being, a life, and a soul."

The Buddha said, “Tell me, Subhuti. Do those who
return once more think, ‘I have attained the goal of
returning once more’?”

Subhuti replied, “No, indeed, Bhagavan. Those who
return once more do not think, ‘I have attained the
goal of returning once more.’ And why not? Bhagavan,
they do not find any such dharma as ‘returning once
more.’ Thus are they said to ‘return once more.’”

The Buddha said, “Tell me, Subhuti. Do those who
return no more think, ‘I have attained the goal of
returning no more’?”

Subhuti replied, “No, indeed, Bhagavan. Those who
return no more do not think ‘I have attained the goal
of returning no more.’ And why not? Bhagavan, they
do not find any such dharma as ‘returning no more.’
Thus are they said to ‘return no more.’”

The Buddha said, “Tell me, Subhuti. Do those who are
free from rebirth think, ‘I have attained freedom from
rebirth' ?"

Subhuti replied, “No, indeed, Bhagavan. Those who
are free from rebirth do not think, ‘I have attained
freedom from rebirth.’ And why not? Bhagavan, there
is no such dharma as ‘freedom from rebirth.’ Thus are
they said to be ‘free from rebirth.’ If, Bhagavan, those
who are free from rebirth should think, ‘I have attained
freedom from rebirth,’ they would be attached to a self,
they would be attached to a being, a life, and a soul."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Jokingfish
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Re: Attainments

Post by Jokingfish »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:14 am
Jokingfish wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:02 am On attainment of stream entrance, clinging to rituals are destroyed, one of them is chanting, but we see most monks chant, so they don't have the attainment of stream entrance, then?
Your logic is faulty.
It is perfectly possible to participate in rituals without clinging to them.
:thinking:
Come to think of it, many of us will do exactly that in just under a month when we gather with extended family for Christmas. :tongue:

:coffee:
Kim
Just to be sure, as an example, a non returner could be playing music for other people, but for what possible reason that could happen?

Or let's say, would it be possible for a Buddha, as great as Gautama, to start a romantic relationship based family?
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Re: Attainments

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Jokingfish wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:29 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:14 am
Jokingfish wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:02 am On attainment of stream entrance, clinging to rituals are destroyed, one of them is chanting, but we see most monks chant, so they don't have the attainment of stream entrance, then?
Your logic is faulty.
It is perfectly possible to participate in rituals without clinging to them.
:thinking:
Come to think of it, many of us will do exactly that in just under a month when we gather with extended family for Christmas. :tongue:

:coffee:
Kim
Just to be sure, as an example, a non returner could be playing music for other people, but for what possible reason that could happen?
Perhaps it's their easiest way of earning enough to buy food. Perhaps they just want to bring happiness to the other people.
Or let's say, would it be possible for a Buddha, as great as Gautama, to start a romantic relationship based family?
I can see no reaason why s/he couldn't, although s/he would probably have better things to do.

But hypothetical questions aren't very interesting or very useful. We need to focus on what we can do, and on choosing the best things we can do.

:namaste:
Kim
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Jokingfish
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Re: Attainments

Post by Jokingfish »

'Perhaps it's their easiest way of earning enough to buy food. Perhaps they just want to bring happiness to the other people.'

Wouldn't such a person waste its time on quite (idk what word to use..) degenerate activity such as music? Wouldn't one think its harmful to other people for it can for example trigger even more attachment or make more obstacle to awakening?
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Re: Attainments

Post by muni »

Just to be sure, as an example, a non returner could be playing music for other people, but for what possible reason that could happen?
To teach emptiness of sound? To bring joy, compassion?

No way to speak about attainments but about music only. Music can be meditation.
When playing music, there is not so a playing me, no instrument, all absorbed in the music-space. But when the thinking mind is babbling along ouch now si black and now sol, it is broken and it is more making noise only.
https://www.nalandastore.com/ProductDet ... DEXT%2D018
Wouldn't one think its harmful to other people for it can for example trigger even more attachment or make more obstacle to awakening?
That could as well, like every attachment. By attachment practice is degenerating.
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Jokingfish
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Re: Attainments

Post by Jokingfish »

Is achieving non dual awareness considered an attainment in buddhism? Is non dual awareness rare among humans?
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Re: Attainments

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Jokingfish wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:20 pm 'Perhaps it's their easiest way of earning enough to buy food. Perhaps they just want to bring happiness to the other people.'

Wouldn't such a person waste its time on quite (idk what word to use..) degenerate activity such as music? Wouldn't one think its harmful to other people for it can for example trigger even more attachment or make more obstacle to awakening?
That depends a lot on the kind of music. There's an enormous range of it, from gangsta rap to 'Flutes of the Andes' world music, to Louis Armstrong trad jazz, to fourteenth century Latin motets, to trance/techno, classical Indian ragas, bubblegum pop, European classical music from Bach St Matthew Passion to Phillip Glass's music for 'Kundun' (with Wagner and Messiaen in between), or the zen music for shakuhachi.
One would not think it's all 'harmful to other people' or could 'trigger even more attachment or make more obstacles to awakening.'
:thinking:
Either in the players or in the listeners, actually.

:meditate:
Kim
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Re: Attainments

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:41 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:20 pm 'Perhaps it's their easiest way of earning enough to buy food. Perhaps they just want to bring happiness to the other people.'

Wouldn't such a person waste its time on quite (idk what word to use..) degenerate activity such as music? Wouldn't one think its harmful to other people for it can for example trigger even more attachment or make more obstacle to awakening?
That depends a lot on the kind of music. There's an enormous range of it, from gangsta rap to 'Flutes of the Andes' world music, to Louis Armstrong trad jazz, to fourteenth century Latin motets, to trance/techno, classical Indian ragas, bubblegum pop, European classical music from Bach St Matthew Passion to Phillip Glass's music for 'Kundun' (with Wagner and Messiaen in between), or the zen music for shakuhachi.
One would not think it's all 'harmful to other people' or could 'trigger even more attachment or make more obstacles to awakening.'
:thinking:
Either in the players or in the listeners, actually.

:meditate:
Kim
As far as i know, Buddha disregarded chanting, and every other kind of music.
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Re: Attainments

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jokingfish wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:23 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:41 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:20 pm 'Perhaps it's their easiest way of earning enough to buy food. Perhaps they just want to bring happiness to the other people.'

Wouldn't such a person waste its time on quite (idk what word to use..) degenerate activity such as music? Wouldn't one think its harmful to other people for it can for example trigger even more attachment or make more obstacle to awakening?
That depends a lot on the kind of music. There's an enormous range of it, from gangsta rap to 'Flutes of the Andes' world music, to Louis Armstrong trad jazz, to fourteenth century Latin motets, to trance/techno, classical Indian ragas, bubblegum pop, European classical music from Bach St Matthew Passion to Phillip Glass's music for 'Kundun' (with Wagner and Messiaen in between), or the zen music for shakuhachi.
One would not think it's all 'harmful to other people' or could 'trigger even more attachment or make more obstacles to awakening.'
:thinking:
Either in the players or in the listeners, actually.

:meditate:
Kim
As far as i know, Buddha disregarded chanting, and every other kind of music.
My two cents:

iirc there are vinaya rules and some restrictions against musical performances for ordained sangha

In the Mahayana such a question is mostly irrelevant, and unless someone plans on truly embarking on a path of renunciation, worrying about whether or not music is ok is just neurotic and not a productive use of time.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Attainments

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Jokingfish wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:23 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:41 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:20 pm 'Perhaps it's their easiest way of earning enough to buy food. Perhaps they just want to bring happiness to the other people.'

Wouldn't such a person waste its time on quite (idk what word to use..) degenerate activity such as music? Wouldn't one think its harmful to other people for it can for example trigger even more attachment or make more obstacle to awakening?
That depends a lot on the kind of music. There's an enormous range of it, from gangsta rap to 'Flutes of the Andes' world music, to Louis Armstrong trad jazz, to fourteenth century Latin motets, to trance/techno, classical Indian ragas, bubblegum pop, European classical music from Bach St Matthew Passion to Phillip Glass's music for 'Kundun' (with Wagner and Messiaen in between), or the zen music for shakuhachi.
One would not think it's all 'harmful to other people' or could 'trigger even more attachment or make more obstacles to awakening.'
:thinking:
Either in the players or in the listeners, actually.

:meditate:
Kim
As far as i know, Buddha disregarded chanting, and every other kind of music.
JD is right but also, "every other kind of music" for the historical Buddha was basically music for entertainment. That's all the community ever had or knew - dance music, love songs, like our popular music but not as loud. Guessing what he might have thought about some of our other kinds of music is probably better than unthinkingly repeating his words about the music he knew.

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: Attainments

Post by Jokingfish »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:46 am
Jokingfish wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:23 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:41 pm
That depends a lot on the kind of music. There's an enormous range of it, from gangsta rap to 'Flutes of the Andes' world music, to Louis Armstrong trad jazz, to fourteenth century Latin motets, to trance/techno, classical Indian ragas, bubblegum pop, European classical music from Bach St Matthew Passion to Phillip Glass's music for 'Kundun' (with Wagner and Messiaen in between), or the zen music for shakuhachi.
One would not think it's all 'harmful to other people' or could 'trigger even more attachment or make more obstacles to awakening.'
:thinking:
Either in the players or in the listeners, actually.

:meditate:
Kim
As far as i know, Buddha disregarded chanting, and every other kind of music.
My two cents:

iirc there are vinaya rules and some restrictions against musical performances for ordained sangha

In the Mahayana such a question is mostly irrelevant, and unless someone plans on truly embarking on a path of renunciation, worrying about whether or not music is ok is just neurotic and not a productive use of time.
I agree that worrying is not good, better to perform virtues or meditation. And i think that even the holiest chants aren't as good as silence.
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Re: Attainments

Post by muni »

I agree that recognizing silence or emptiness is crucial to stop the clinging dual consciousness.

Emptiness-appearances are inseparable. All is not out of emptiness or silence. Same with music/sound. It is our clinging what is the problem. Recognized stillness or silence is not clinging. Therefore crucial.

Perhaps see a in a second by the last OM AH HUNG!

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Re: Attainments

Post by Giovanni »

Jokingfish wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:27 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:46 am
Jokingfish wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:23 am
As far as i know, Buddha disregarded chanting, and every other kind of music.
My two cents:

iirc there are vinaya rules and some restrictions against musical performances for ordained sangha

In the Mahayana such a question is mostly irrelevant, and unless someone plans on truly embarking on a path of renunciation, worrying about whether or not music is ok is just neurotic and not a productive use of time.
I agree that worrying is not good, better to perform virtues or meditation. And i think that even the holiest chants aren't as good as silence.
Does silence exist?
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