Just to be clear, on third stage of enlightenment (non returner), the fetter of sensual desire is destroyed. So anybody who is higher or on the level of non returner, will not do anything which sensual desire such as art, music, entertainment, tasty food? And never will?
Ty.
Edit milarepa wrote songs, is that considered playing music or just poetry? Hakuin ekaku painted a lot, does that mean he is lower than non returner, then, at that time when created artworks?
On fetters
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: On fetters
…or does it simply mean they won’t be fettered to those things?Jokingfish wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:24 pm Just to be clear, on third stage of enlightenment (non returner), the fetter of sensual desire is destroyed. So anybody who is higher or on the level of non returner, will not do anything which sensual desire such as art, music, entertainment, tasty food? And never will?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: On fetters
This will vary among the different Buddhist schools I guess.
In Theravada, all art is classified as sensual phenomenon - or I should say the ultimate refinement of sensuality. You would have to ask a non-returner directly to get a 100% correct answer, but my understanding is that at this level of development you derive pleasure from Dhammic activities only (especially jhana, which should be quite easy at this stage as there are virtually no obstacles). I can imagine that if the said anagami had already been artistically oriented before the attainment, they might offer their skills at the service of the Dhamma and produce some art to promote the teachings, such as illustrating books. They might probably also write books themselves. In the Pali canon, there is a section called Theragatha - short verses uttered by arahants immediately after attaining nibbana. This suggests that not all forms of artistic expression are by default excluded even at such high level of cultivation.
That being said, people sometimes underestimate the attainment of becoming an anagami. An anagami is much closer to an arahant than to a sakadagami (once-returner). At this stage you´re pretty much out of samsara with one foot so the vast majority of things you now hold dear and desirable will probably lose their magic once you become a non-returner. Complete transcendence of sensuality is a monumental victory and should not be taken for granted.
As for other schools, I´d say that Vajrayana will probably be more open towards artistic expression even for saints. It´s a completely different system.
In Theravada, all art is classified as sensual phenomenon - or I should say the ultimate refinement of sensuality. You would have to ask a non-returner directly to get a 100% correct answer, but my understanding is that at this level of development you derive pleasure from Dhammic activities only (especially jhana, which should be quite easy at this stage as there are virtually no obstacles). I can imagine that if the said anagami had already been artistically oriented before the attainment, they might offer their skills at the service of the Dhamma and produce some art to promote the teachings, such as illustrating books. They might probably also write books themselves. In the Pali canon, there is a section called Theragatha - short verses uttered by arahants immediately after attaining nibbana. This suggests that not all forms of artistic expression are by default excluded even at such high level of cultivation.
That being said, people sometimes underestimate the attainment of becoming an anagami. An anagami is much closer to an arahant than to a sakadagami (once-returner). At this stage you´re pretty much out of samsara with one foot so the vast majority of things you now hold dear and desirable will probably lose their magic once you become a non-returner. Complete transcendence of sensuality is a monumental victory and should not be taken for granted.
As for other schools, I´d say that Vajrayana will probably be more open towards artistic expression even for saints. It´s a completely different system.
Re: On fetters
You are confusing hearers' system of liberation with Mahayana levels of realization and Vajrayana methods of transformation. Thats why your question is confusing and you received confusing answers as a result.Jokingfish wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:24 pm Just to be clear, on third stage of enlightenment (non returner), the fetter of sensual desire is destroyed. So anybody who is higher or on the level of non returner, will not do anything which sensual desire such as art, music, entertainment, tasty food? And never will?
Ty.
Edit milarepa wrote songs, is that considered playing music or just poetry? Hakuin ekaku painted a lot, does that mean he is lower than non returner, then, at that time when created artworks?
For example in Mahayana presentation of bhumis, there is no third stage of enlightenment nor one that is named as "non returner". Fetters are not used instead afflictive obstructions are used instead.
Furthermore in Milarepa case, the five poisons such as desire can be transformed into wisdom after recognizing its true nature. They are not abandoned like in the hearers' system
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Re: On fetters
Famous Mahayana quote: problem is not enjoyment, problem is attachment. - Tilopa
So for Mahayana enjoying arts is ok. Attachment to it, is not.
So for Mahayana enjoying arts is ok. Attachment to it, is not.
- Agent Smith
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Re: On fetters
Fetters is the apposite word - it's almost a given I would say. The OP does make a connection with a deeper level of truth and it'd be to our benefit if some advanced practitioners could follow this lead; I have a feeling it's gonna be worth the effort.