Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Forum for discussion of East Asian Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
SilverFantasy
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:38 pm

Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by SilverFantasy »

I'm a Dzogchen practitioner, but have been really fascinated by the potential Chan influence on the practices, and of the origin of the belief in "Sudden Enlightenment" (compared to gradual). I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the history of this practice in India? Obviously things like the Heart Sutra point to it, and I'm familiar w/ the idea of Bodidharma bringing it into China. But were there schools that had "Chan" like practices in India, before Chan? Or was Chan really the originators of this idea?

Thanks
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

SilverFantasy wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:37 pmBut were there schools that had "Chan" like practices in India, before Chan? Or was Chan really the originators of this idea?
The radical version of sudden awakening (see nature and become buddha 見性成佛) that came to be the hallmark of Chan is an approach that developed within the tradition, with various teachers and lineages taking different approaches regarding it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

SilverFantasy wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:37 pm I'm a Dzogchen practitioner, but have been really fascinated by the potential Chan influence on the practices, and of the origin of the belief in "Sudden Enlightenment" (compared to gradual). I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the history of this practice in India? Obviously things like the Heart Sutra point to it, and I'm familiar w/ the idea of Bodidharma bringing it into China. But were there schools that had "Chan" like practices in India, before Chan? Or was Chan really the originators of this idea?

Thanks
The source of the idea of sudden awakening is in the Lankāvatāra Sūtra, which was the sūtra Bodhidharma brought with him to China. There is a comment by Śrī Siṃha in one his commentaries in the Bairo Gyud Bum, where he discusses the Chinese approach to the two truths as "simultaneous entry."
User avatar
SilverFantasy
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:38 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by SilverFantasy »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:54 pm
SilverFantasy wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:37 pm I'm a Dzogchen practitioner, but have been really fascinated by the potential Chan influence on the practices, and of the origin of the belief in "Sudden Enlightenment" (compared to gradual). I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the history of this practice in India? Obviously things like the Heart Sutra point to it, and I'm familiar w/ the idea of Bodidharma bringing it into China. But were there schools that had "Chan" like practices in India, before Chan? Or was Chan really the originators of this idea?

Thanks
The source of the idea of sudden awakening is in the Lankāvatāra Sūtra, which was the sūtra Bodhidharma brought with him to China. There is a comment by Śrī Siṃha in one his commentaries in the Bairo Gyud Bum, where he discusses the Chinese approach to the two truths as "simultaneous entry."
Interesting, I wasn't familiar w/ the Śrī Siṃha connection before. Does that mean there was no movement of it in India, before the Chinese influence? I would have assumed based on the Lankāvatāra and the Heart Sutra that there would have been some kind of party holding those beliefs, or one that Bodhidharma was a part of.
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Anders »

Chan was not the originator of the idea in China.

That distinction belongs to Daosheng who predated by a century or so.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by tingdzin »

In a book called something like Sudden and Gradual, edited by (I think) Gregory, there is an article by (I think) Luis Gomez, exploring the possible Indian roots of the Ch'an doctrine of "sudden enlightenment". I think the main source he discusses is exactly the Lankavatara. How popular the Lankavatara sutra was in India is open to question. Some have claimed that Zen-like practices stemmed from the Indian siddhas, but there is no real evidence for that at all.

The Heart Sutra really doesn't touch on the question explicitly, though it could be brought in to support the theoretical possibility of sudden enlightenment I suppose. Anyway, there is significant evidence that the Heart Sutra was a distillation of longer Prajnaparamita literature that was composed in China.

The tradition of Bodhidharma as carried on in a simplified form in the Chan schools is historically doubtful. For a long time, the Chinese thought that Indian origin and scriptural authenticity were inseparable, so there was a lot of inventing of Indian forbears, as with The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana.

By the way, there is an article by Van Schaik who discusses the interreaction of currents which developed into Chan and those which developed into Dzogchen. Sorry but I can't remember the name of it now, but he makes the point that in the early days, it was not a question of an established Chan school and an established Dzogchenm school in dialogue. Things were looser in the early days.
stong gzugs
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:58 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by stong gzugs »

Sam van Schaik has done fantastic related work. Here's a quick snippet from his book Approaching the great perfection: Simultaneous and gradual approaches to Dzogchen practice in Jigme Lingpa's Longchen Nyingtig. His newer book, Tibetan Zen, may have some relevant content as well.
In early Buddhist scriptures, there are many discussions of gradual cultivation, but also accounts of disciples attaining realization on hearing short sermons by the Buddha. 20 In the more technical discussions in the Pali canon, a distinction is made between liberation of the mind (Pal. ceto-vimutt1), which involves gradual ascent through the levels of absorption (Pal. jhiina) in samatha meditation, and liberation through prajfia (Pal. pafifia-vimutti), which some held to afford a direct access to enlightenment without the need to pass through the levels of absorption. 21

The existence of both approaches is evident in the Mahayana sutras as well. In the Prajfiaparamita sutras the doctrine of emptiness undermined the
substantiality of all philosophical reasoning and religious practice. In other sutras, such as the Tathiigatagarbhasutra, the teaching that all sentient beings are possessed of an inherent buddhahood held the implication that there could be access to an immediate realization of buddhahood. Yet it was also in these Mahayana texts that the ideal of the gradual cultivation of the bodhisattva's path was expounded, a cultivation that was generally said to occur through several eons.
Kai lord
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 2:38 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Kai lord »

SilverFantasy wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:37 pm I'm a Dzogchen practitioner, but have been really fascinated by the potential Chan influence on the practices, and of the origin of the belief in "Sudden Enlightenment" (compared to gradual).
The fun fact is that the Hashang which appeared in Tibet and lost the debate, was actually originated from the northern "gradual" school of Chan. The real sudden school in China was the southern school of Chan.

The northern school got pushed out of Tibet due to the debate and for pushing "sudden approach". On the other hand, they lost significant influence in China after repeated attacks by the Southern school on their "gradual approaches" and they gradually died out. The Southern school eventually became the hallmark for the development in Chan and their influence extended all over East Asia.

Unfortunately the Southern school of sudden Enlightenment teaching never really made it to Tibet.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

'Whereas Tao-sheng had spoken of gradual practice as a prerequisite for sudden enlightenment, Tsung-mi (780-841), representing the later Ch'an position, would take enlightenment to be a priori (pen-chüeh) and accordingly deem practice to be its derived function — a gradual cultivation based on sudden enlightenment.'
(Tao-sheng's Theory of Sudden Enlightenment by Whalen Lai, in Sudden and Gradual: Approaches to Enlightnement in Chinese Thought, p 194)

What probably fits the more popular interpretation of sudden enlightenment:

'The notion of sudden enlightenment stresses the instantaneity or immediacy of enlightenment, the existential-experiential, holistic (not merely intellectual) “sudden opening” and awakening, as one realizes one’s own Buddha-nature. This immediacy transcends dualistic distinctions such as means and goal, cultivation and realization, practice and attainment, parts and whole, and so forth. For sudden teaching (dunjiao), there is no order or procedure of a gradual path that can directly lead to the final goal. It is a path of no-path.'
(Historical Dictionary of Chan Buddhism by Youru Wang, p 211)

Ven. Sheng-yen in Orthodox Chinese Buddhism (p 100-103) measures Chan's sudden awakening with the six identities taught in Tiantai and states that it cannot be anything higher than buddhahood in semblance. Hyujeong (Explanation of Seon and Doctrine, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 274), just like Jinul (Treatise on the Complete and Sudden Attainment of Buddhahood, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 283-284), would disagree, and Huangbo (Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 16) even more so.

How approaches can vary is summed up by Zongmi:

'Of the various sutras and treatises and the various Chan gates, some say that one first relies on the merit accumulated through step-by-step practice and then suddenly all-at-once awakens. Some say that one first relies on all-at-once awakening and then can engage in step-by-step practice. Some say that relying on all-at-once practice, one step-by-step awakens. Some say that awakening and practice are both step-by-step. Some say that they are both all-at-once. Some say that the dharma has neither all-at-once nor step-by-step, that all-at-once and step-by-step are in the dispositions [of trainees].'
(Chan Prolegomenon, in Zongmi on Chan, p 118)

For a more complete picture, Robert E. Buswell Jr. in the introduction of Numinous Awareness is Never Dark (p 46-48) has collected the main forms of sudden/gradual cultivation/awakening schemata, based on the works of Chengguan, Zongmi, and Jinul:

1. Gradualist schemata
1.1. Sudden awakening/gradual cultivation (tono chŏmsu/dunwu jianxiu 頓悟漸修): This schema is described from the vantage point of the understanding-awakening. Awakening is like the rays of the morning sun; cultivation is like polishing a mirror so that it gleams ever more brightly. Zongmi’s similes in his Preface are even clearer: the sun rises suddenly at dawn (awakening) but only gradually evaporates the morning dew (cultivation); or, an infant is born all at once with all the inherent capacities of a human being (awakening), but only gradually matures into an adult who can put those capacities to use (cultivation).
1.2. Gradual cultivation/sudden awakening (chŏmsu tono/jianxiu dunwu 漸修頓悟): Its vantage point is the realization-awakening. Cultivation is like a gleaming mirror; awakening is the reflectiveness of that mirror. Zongmi’s simile in his Preface is that cultivation is like gradually chopping away at a tree, awakening is the moment when the tree finally falls.
1.3. Gradual cultivation/gradual awakening (chŏmsu chŏmo/jianxiu jianwu 漸修漸悟): This schema is described from the vantage point of the realization-awakening. Cultivating is like climbing a tower; awakening is like seeing more and more the higher you climb.
1.4. Sudden cultivation/gradual awakening (tunsu chŏmo/dunxiu jianwu 頓修漸悟): This is an alternative listed only in Zongmi’s Preface; it is not included in Chengguan’s Zhenyuan Commentary. The vantage point of this schema is also the realization-awakening, as Yanshou clarifies in his discussion. Cultivation here is like going through the singular motion of shooting an arrow over and over; awakening is gradually learning to hit the bull’s-eye consistently. This is also like an apprentice model of learning, where one learns the craft as a whole (sudden cultivation) but only gradually masters it (gradual awakening).
2. Radical subitist schemata
2.1. Sudden awakening/sudden cultivation (tono tonsu/dunwu dunxiu 頓悟頓修): According to Chengguan, this schema is described from the vantage point of the understanding-awakening, though Yanshou in his treatment in Common End of Myriad Good Deeds claims it is actually the realization-awakening. This is like a mirror that naturally gleams (awakening) without needing to be wiped or polished (cultivation). Zongmi’s simile in his Preface is that a spool of thread sliced by a single strike of the sword (awakening) will cut through the entire spool instantly (cultivation).
2.2. Sudden cultivation/sudden awakening (tonsu tono/dunxiu dunwu 頓修頓悟): This schema is described from the vantage point of the realization-awakening. Cultivation is like taking medicine; awakening is like curing the disease.
2.3. Simultaneity of sudden cultivation and sudden awakening (su’o ilsi/xiuwu yishi 修悟一時): This schema is described from the vantage point of both the understanding- and realization-awakenings. Cultivating is like a gleaming mirror; awakening is that mirror reflecting everything in existence.
2.4. Simultaneous sudden awakening and sudden cultivation, using slightly different terminology: this schema also encompasses both the understanding- and realization-awakenings. To be originally endowed with all the qualities of buddhahood is awakening; to have all the practices mastered along the path to buddhahood inherent in a single thought is cultivation. In this alternative, cultivation is like drinking ocean water; awakening is like knowing the taste of all the rivers that have ever flowed into that ocean.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:31 pm :focus:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pmAnd the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.
I deemed it a necessary point to make, just to see what might qualify as 'sudden enlightenment' as found in Chan. For instance, stories of quick attainments are far from being definitive (already the Nikayas have examples for that, like the Bāhiyasutta, but subitism is rejected, e.g. Kīṭāgirisutta, Uposathasutta), even if the case of the Dragon Princess is often quoted in Chan.

The fundamentally important Treatise on Awakening Mahayana Faith is quite explicit:

'Sometimes, for the sake of weak-willed people, they show how to attain perfect enlightenment quickly by skipping over the stages [of the bodhisattva]. And sometimes, for the sake of indolent people, they say that human beings may attain enlightenment at the end of numberless eons. Thus they can demonstrate innumerable expedient means and suprarational feats. But in reality all these bodhisattvas are the same in that they are alike in their lineage, their capacity, their aspiration, and their realization [of suchness]; therefore, there is no such thing as skipping over the stages, for all bodhisattvas must pass through the three terms of innumerable eons [before they can fully attain enlightenment]. However, because of the differences in the various worlds of beings, and in the objects of seeing and hearing, as well as in the capacity, desires, and nature of the various beings, there are also different ways of teaching them what to practice.'
(The Awakening of Faith, BDK ed, p 66-67)

And the Surangama Sutra states:

'You may suddenly reach an understanding of the principle of the aggregates, and on that basis you may presume the aggregates will all vanish together. But, in fact, they do not all vanish at once; they must be ended in sequence.'
(The Śūraṅgama Sūtra - A New Translation, p 461; referenced by Hyujeung in Seonga gwigam 37 (CWKB, vol 3, p 103-104))

While it's possible to find statements fitting the Chan style, they are not of the systematised path descriptions.

'Furthermore, the bodhisattva acquires the Prajñāpāramitā without practicing any dharma and without acquiring any dharma. Why? All practices (caryā) are erroneous and futile: from near or far, they present faults. In fact, bad dharmas (akuśaladharma) are faulty from close up; as for good dharmas, they are transformed and modified from far away; those who become attached to them will end up by experiencing pain and sorrow; thus they show defects from far off. [Good and bad practices] are like an appetizing food and a disgusting food both of which have been poisoned. As soon as one eats the disgusting food, one feels dissatisfied. When one eats the appetizing food, one feels pleasant satisfaction for the moment, but later it takes one’s life. Therefore both kinds of food should be avoided, and it is the same for good and bad practices.
...
For the person who practices the absence of practice thus, nothing exists any longer: errors (viparyāsa), deceptions (vañcana) and the afflictions (kleśa) no longer arise for they are purified like space (ākāśaśuddha). He acquires the true nature of dharmas by holding his non-acquisition (anupalabdhi) as an acquisition.'

(MPPS XXX.5.3)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pmAnd the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.
I deemed it a necessary point to make, just to see what might qualify as 'sudden enlightenment' as found in Chan.
You'd have been better off with the Manjuśrīnamasaṃgiti, etc.:

Differentiated in a single instant,
in one instant, perfect buddhahood.


Granted, this is quite a late text, appearing in the 8th century. But it is contemporary with the Samye "debate" and more importantly, has an Indian provenance.
The fundamentally important Treatise on Awakening Mahayana Faith is quite explicit:
Chinese apocrypha.
And the Surangama Sutra states:
Chinese apocrypha.
Maybe not a Chinese apocrypha, but unclear in origin.
User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by KeithA »

Astus wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:31 pm 'Whereas Tao-sheng had spoken of gradual practice as a prerequisite for sudden enlightenment, Tsung-mi (780-841), representing the later Ch'an position, would take enlightenment to be a priori (pen-chüeh) and accordingly deem practice to be its derived function — a gradual cultivation based on sudden enlightenment.'
(Tao-sheng's Theory of Sudden Enlightenment by Whalen Lai, in Sudden and Gradual: Approaches to Enlightnement in Chinese Thought, p 194)

What probably fits the more popular interpretation of sudden enlightenment:

'The notion of sudden enlightenment stresses the instantaneity or immediacy of enlightenment, the existential-experiential, holistic (not merely intellectual) “sudden opening” and awakening, as one realizes one’s own Buddha-nature. This immediacy transcends dualistic distinctions such as means and goal, cultivation and realization, practice and attainment, parts and whole, and so forth. For sudden teaching (dunjiao), there is no order or procedure of a gradual path that can directly lead to the final goal. It is a path of no-path.'
(Historical Dictionary of Chan Buddhism by Youru Wang, p 211)

Ven. Sheng-yen in Orthodox Chinese Buddhism (p 100-103) measures Chan's sudden awakening with the six identities taught in Tiantai and states that it cannot be anything higher than buddhahood in semblance. Hyujeong (Explanation of Seon and Doctrine, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 274), just like Jinul (Treatise on the Complete and Sudden Attainment of Buddhahood, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 283-284), would disagree, and Huangbo (Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 16) even more so.

How approaches can vary is summed up by Zongmi:

'Of the various sutras and treatises and the various Chan gates, some say that one first relies on the merit accumulated through step-by-step practice and then suddenly all-at-once awakens. Some say that one first relies on all-at-once awakening and then can engage in step-by-step practice. Some say that relying on all-at-once practice, one step-by-step awakens. Some say that awakening and practice are both step-by-step. Some say that they are both all-at-once. Some say that the dharma has neither all-at-once nor step-by-step, that all-at-once and step-by-step are in the dispositions [of trainees].'
(Chan Prolegomenon, in Zongmi on Chan, p 118)

For a more complete picture, Robert E. Buswell Jr. in the introduction of Numinous Awareness is Never Dark (p 46-48) has collected the main forms of sudden/gradual cultivation/awakening schemata, based on the works of Chengguan, Zongmi, and Jinul:

1. Gradualist schemata
1.1. Sudden awakening/gradual cultivation (tono chŏmsu/dunwu jianxiu 頓悟漸修): This schema is described from the vantage point of the understanding-awakening. Awakening is like the rays of the morning sun; cultivation is like polishing a mirror so that it gleams ever more brightly. Zongmi’s similes in his Preface are even clearer: the sun rises suddenly at dawn (awakening) but only gradually evaporates the morning dew (cultivation); or, an infant is born all at once with all the inherent capacities of a human being (awakening), but only gradually matures into an adult who can put those capacities to use (cultivation).
1.2. Gradual cultivation/sudden awakening (chŏmsu tono/jianxiu dunwu 漸修頓悟): Its vantage point is the realization-awakening. Cultivation is like a gleaming mirror; awakening is the reflectiveness of that mirror. Zongmi’s simile in his Preface is that cultivation is like gradually chopping away at a tree, awakening is the moment when the tree finally falls.
1.3. Gradual cultivation/gradual awakening (chŏmsu chŏmo/jianxiu jianwu 漸修漸悟): This schema is described from the vantage point of the realization-awakening. Cultivating is like climbing a tower; awakening is like seeing more and more the higher you climb.
1.4. Sudden cultivation/gradual awakening (tunsu chŏmo/dunxiu jianwu 頓修漸悟): This is an alternative listed only in Zongmi’s Preface; it is not included in Chengguan’s Zhenyuan Commentary. The vantage point of this schema is also the realization-awakening, as Yanshou clarifies in his discussion. Cultivation here is like going through the singular motion of shooting an arrow over and over; awakening is gradually learning to hit the bull’s-eye consistently. This is also like an apprentice model of learning, where one learns the craft as a whole (sudden cultivation) but only gradually masters it (gradual awakening).
2. Radical subitist schemata
2.1. Sudden awakening/sudden cultivation (tono tonsu/dunwu dunxiu 頓悟頓修): According to Chengguan, this schema is described from the vantage point of the understanding-awakening, though Yanshou in his treatment in Common End of Myriad Good Deeds claims it is actually the realization-awakening. This is like a mirror that naturally gleams (awakening) without needing to be wiped or polished (cultivation). Zongmi’s simile in his Preface is that a spool of thread sliced by a single strike of the sword (awakening) will cut through the entire spool instantly (cultivation).
2.2. Sudden cultivation/sudden awakening (tonsu tono/dunxiu dunwu 頓修頓悟): This schema is described from the vantage point of the realization-awakening. Cultivation is like taking medicine; awakening is like curing the disease.
2.3. Simultaneity of sudden cultivation and sudden awakening (su’o ilsi/xiuwu yishi 修悟一時): This schema is described from the vantage point of both the understanding- and realization-awakenings. Cultivating is like a gleaming mirror; awakening is that mirror reflecting everything in existence.
2.4. Simultaneous sudden awakening and sudden cultivation, using slightly different terminology: this schema also encompasses both the understanding- and realization-awakenings. To be originally endowed with all the qualities of buddhahood is awakening; to have all the practices mastered along the path to buddhahood inherent in a single thought is cultivation. In this alternative, cultivation is like drinking ocean water; awakening is like knowing the taste of all the rivers that have ever flowed into that ocean.
:good: Thanks for this summary, Astus. I am half way through the Chinul book from Collected Works now.
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
User avatar
SilverFantasy
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:38 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by SilverFantasy »

tingdzin wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:50 am In a book called something like Sudden and Gradual, edited by (I think) Gregory, there is an article by (I think) Luis Gomez, exploring the possible Indian roots of the Ch'an doctrine of "sudden enlightenment". I think the main source he discusses is exactly the Lankavatara. How popular the Lankavatara sutra was in India is open to question. Some have claimed that Zen-like practices stemmed from the Indian siddhas, but there is no real evidence for that at all.

The Heart Sutra really doesn't touch on the question explicitly, though it could be brought in to support the theoretical possibility of sudden enlightenment I suppose. Anyway, there is significant evidence that the Heart Sutra was a distillation of longer Prajnaparamita literature that was composed in China.

The tradition of Bodhidharma as carried on in a simplified form in the Chan schools is historically doubtful. For a long time, the Chinese thought that Indian origin and scriptural authenticity were inseparable, so there was a lot of inventing of Indian forbears, as with The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana.

By the way, there is an article by Van Schaik who discusses the interreaction of currents which developed into Chan and those which developed into Dzogchen. Sorry but I can't remember the name of it now, but he makes the point that in the early days, it was not a question of an established Chan school and an established Dzogchenm school in dialogue. Things were looser in the early days.
Interesting! Maybe I've read and seen too many videos within the bias of the Heart Sutra from a Sudden ENlightment Dzogchen and Zen bias, that I'm appropriating it into that box as an absolute. I've read passages of the Lankavatara, but will have to read it in full now.

Interesting, so you're saying that the evidence suggests that the Heart Sutra was composed in China afterall, and not India?

As for the potential inventing Indian links to East Asian practices, I'm definitely used to hearing about that now from the Dzogchen line LOL :)! Everything has a history I suppose, outside of the myth. Will definitely look into the other references.
User avatar
SilverFantasy
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:38 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by SilverFantasy »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:31 pm :focus:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.
Hhhhhhmmmm. More to research.

Thanks for all the responses from everyone so far.
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by tingdzin »

SilverFantasy wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:14 am nteresting, so you're saying that the evidence suggests that the Heart Sutra was composed in China afterall, and not India?
It looks that way to me, but there are those who deny it bitterly. further, it should be made clear that it was an abridgement rather than an original composition.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:31 pm :focus:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.
Rongzompa sites the Prajnaparamita Sutra and the Gandarvyuhasutra for the propositions of primordial purity and that ordinary sentient beings are pure by nature. He then goes on to reason in Establishing Appearances... that because of this nature ignorance is untenable as something to purify.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

Another way to go by is to see the sutras regularly quoted in Chan, like the Diamond Sutra.

'Those who are free from all notions are called buddhas.'
(Diamond Sutra, ch 14)

Like in the poem of Guling Shenzan:
'If it can leave false conditions, it is the true buddha.'
(T51n2076p268a22-23 / Records of the Transmission of the Lamp 9.174 / quoted in Master Hsu Yun's Discourses and Dharma Words, p 121)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:46 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Agent Smith »

Has this forum outgrown Wikipedia?

Here's somwthing I found https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism

The article doesn't actually mention any ancient Indian texts but the concept does exist as akrama mukti (sudden liberation)

Have a read, it's quite informative and also inspiring.
MGeorge116
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:27 pm

Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by MGeorge116 »

Shakyamunibutsu Great Priest (Śākyamuni Buddha): (623-543 BCE) Siddārtha Gautama of the Śākyas, the historical Buddha.

Had many disciples from whom all the schools of the Dharma are descended.

Makakashyo Great Priest (Mahākāśyapa (S),Mahākassapa (P)): Chief Elder after death of the Buddha; convened the lst Council to preserve the Teaching.

Ananda Great Priest (Ānanda): Personal attendant of the Buddha for 20 years; upheld the cause of women in the Order; died at age of 120.

Shōnawashyu Great Priest (Śāṇakavāsin (S) or Śāṇakavāsa): One of the Elder Arhats present at the 2nd Council 100 years after the Buddha’s death.

Ubakikūta Great Priest (Upagupta (S)): Spiritual advisor to King Ashoka.

Daitaka Great Priest (Dhṛṭaka (S) or Dhītika): Descendant of the Gautama family.

Mīshaka Great Priest (Micchaka (S) or Miccaka)

Bashūmitsu Great Priest (Vasumitra): Chief Elder at 4th Council.

Butsudanadai Great Priest (Buddhanandi)

Fūdamitta Great Priest (Buddhamitra): a woman

Barishība Great Priest (Pārśva)

Funayashya Great Priest (Punyayaśas): Descendant of the Gautama family; renowned for his diligent practice.

Anabotei Great Priest (Aśvaghoṣa): One of the greatest Buddhist authors; reputed author of The Awakening of Faith and a life of the Buddha in verse; considered a Bodhisattva.

Kabimora Great Priest (Kapimala): Known as an Arhat.

Nagyaarajyuna Great Priest (Nāgārjuna): Greatest of Indian Ancestors; author of many works on the Scriptures of Great Wisdom; emphasized the via negativa; in all schools of the Mahayana he is considered to be a Great Ancestor and a Bodhisattva.

Kanadaiba Great Priest (Āryadeva): Chief disciple of Nāgārjuna; had only one eye; killed by anti-Buddhists.

Ragorata Great Priest (Rāhulatā or Rāhulata): Reputed to have performed wonders.

Sōgyanandai Great Priest (Sanghanandi or Sanghānandi)

Kayashyata Great Priest (Gayāshata or Sanghayaśas)

Kūmorata Great Priest (Kumārata)

Shyyata Great Priest (Sayanta or Jayata or Śayata)

Bashyubanzu Great Priest (Vasubandhu): Brother of the great master Asanga; major author of many works including a Buddhist encyclopedia the Abhidharma-kosha; he emphasized the via positiva.

Manura Great Priest (Manora or Manorhita): From a princely family.

Kakurokuna Great Priest (Haklenayasas or Haklenayaśas): From the Brahmin caste of northwestern India

Shishibodai Great Priest (Simhabhikshu or Āryasimha or Simhabodhi): A native of central India; executed in persecution of Buddhism ca. 259 CE in Kashmir.

Bashyashita Great Priest (Vasiasita): From Kashmir; died ca. 325 CE

Funyomita Great Priest (Punyamitra): Author of several works on meditation.

Hannyatara Great Priest (Prajñātāra): A woman who taught in southern India; died ca. 457 CE

The above Ancestors represent the Indian Ancestors.

Bodaidaruma Great Priest (Bodhidharma): From a royal family of southern India; travelled by sea to China; 1st Chinese Ancestor.

___________________________

Prajñātārā, was the twenty-seventh patriarch of Indian Buddhism according to Chan Buddhism, and the teacher of Bodhidharma.

Prajñātārā was from a Brahmin family in eastern India and was orphaned at a young age. Without a family name, Prajñātārā was called 'Precious Necklace' or 'Keyura' before ordination.When the 26th Patriarch, Punyamitra, came to visit the king of Prajñātārā's region, Punyamitra stopped the king's carriage on seeing Prajñātārā bowing. Prajñātārā was identified as having been Punyamitra's student in a previous incarnation, and Punyamitra identified Prajñātārā as an incarnation of the Bodhisattva Mahasthamaprapta.Punyamitra confirmed Prajñātārā as his Dharma-successor and then passed away.

After receiving the Dharma, Prajñātārā traveled to southern India and encountered Bodhidharma, then living as the youngest son of a king called Excelling in Fragrance. Before passing away at the age of sixty-seven, Prajñātārā instructed Bodhidharma to travel to China to spread the Dharma. At death, Prajñātārā ascended into the sky and burst into flame, raining down relics on devotees below.

The Denkoroku by Keizan Jokin Zenji relates the following kōan, a legendary exchange between Prajñātārā and Bodhidharma.

The Venerable Prajnatara asks Bodhidharma, "What is it that is formless amongst things?"
Bodhidharma says, "Formlessness is unborn."
Prajnatara asks, "What is the highest amongst things?"
Bodhidharma says, "The Actual Nature is the highest."
Post Reply

Return to “East Asian Buddhism”