Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

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Shaiksha
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Shaiksha »

The earliest one can probably be found in the Bahiya Sutta - where Bahiya woke up right there after hearing the Buddha's words.
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Aemilius
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Aemilius »

Also the stream-entry (enlightenment) of Shariputra/Upatishya:

"In response, the Elder Assaji uttered this stanza:

"Of all those things that from a cause arise,
Tathagata the cause thereof has told;
And how they cease to be, that too he tells,
This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse."

Upon hearing the first two lines, Upatissa became established in the Path of stream-entry, and to the ending of the last two lines he already listened as a stream-winner."

in https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el090.html

Same happened to Maudgalyayana/Mogallana/Kolita, when Shariputra/Upatishya told his friend the verse he had heard from Ashvajit:

" Ye dhamma hetupabhava
tesam hetum Tathagataha
tesam ca yo nirodho
evam vadi mahasamano.

The Perfect One has told the cause
of causally arisen things
And what brings their cessation, too:
Such is the doctrine taught by the Great Monk.

In literal translation:

Of things conditionally arisen
the Thus-gone the condition told
and what is their cessation,
thus the Great Ascetic proclaimed.

When Upatissa heard this stanza, the vision of truth (the "Dhamma-eye") arose in him on the spot, and the very same happened to Kolita/Maudgalyayana when he listened to the stanza retold by his friend."

from https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el263.html
Last edited by Aemilius on Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

Agent Smith wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:06 amthe concept does exist as akrama mukti (sudden liberation)
It's not a common concept but one used by him only, so it's nothing to do with Buddhism in India.
Shaiksha wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:20 pmThe earliest one can probably be found in the Bahiya Sutta - where Bahiya woke up right there after hearing the Buddha's words.
Aemilius wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:46 amAlso the stream-entry (enlightenment) of Shariputra/Upatishya
See above in this thread: 'stories of quick attainments are far from being definitive (already the Nikayas have examples for that, like the Bāhiyasutta, but subitism is rejected, e.g. Kīṭāgirisutta, Uposathasutta)'
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Anders
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Anders »

Shaiksha wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:20 pm The earliest one can probably be found in the Bahiya Sutta - where Bahiya woke up right there after hearing the Buddha's words.
That's not really what sudden awakening is about.

It is, although a bit klunkily, more meaningfully translated as the 'simultaneous/immediate (without mediation)/all at once' teaching.

The core of it is basically a rejection of gradualism. It is perhaps best expressed in huinengs "one thought of bodhi makes you the equal of a Buddha, whilst one thought of delusion makes you a sentient being". This is not acceptable in a gradualist scheme whereby the result follows at the end of cultivation, rather than simultaneous with/as cultivation.

It is really not so much about speed or how awakening manifests but about a type of practice in which there are no real stages and the implications of it.

Soto is sometimes held as 'gradual' but this is based on a similar misconception. It could in fact be said to be more subitist than Rinzai since Dogen argued that the wholehearted effort of a beginner is the wholehearted effort of a Buddha, whilst hakuin argued that true (sudden) practise only comes on board post kensho.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:31 pm :focus:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.
Rongzompa sites the Prajnaparamita Sutra and the Gandarvyuhasutra for the propositions of primordial purity and that ordinary sentient beings are pure by nature. He then goes on to reason in Establishing Appearances... that because of this nature ignorance is untenable as something to purify.
At the base of all Rongzom's reasonings is that everything is completely unreal, therefore, there is nothing to purify because ignorance is not something substantial or real that needs to be removed.
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Agent Smith »

Astus wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:59 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:06 amthe concept does exist as akrama mukti (sudden liberation)
It's not a common concept but one used by him only, so it's nothing to do with Buddhism in India.
Shaiksha wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:20 pmThe earliest one can probably be found in the Bahiya Sutta - where Bahiya woke up right there after hearing the Buddha's words.
Aemilius wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:46 amAlso the stream-entry (enlightenment) of Shariputra/Upatishya
See above in this thread: 'stories of quick attainments are far from being definitive (already the Nikayas have examples for that, like the Bāhiyasutta, but subitism is rejected, e.g. Kīṭāgirisutta, Uposathasutta)'
So there are apocryphal accounts of, I love the phrase, akrama mukti. However, to repeat myself, evidence is wanting for true tales of illumination subite. How sad? According to a monk I know, the Buddha took the long route (out of choice or not he didn't share) having practiced the dharma in 5000 or so previous lives. Assuming life expectancy to be around 60, that many lives amounts to 300,000 years. Paleontology says that humans have been around for roughly 200,000 years. Either we're looking at a Buddhist ape or my monk friend is :crazy: But shhhh! I won't tell anybody.

:stirthepot:
Natan
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:34 pm
Natan wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pm

And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.
Rongzompa sites the Prajnaparamita Sutra and the Gandarvyuhasutra for the propositions of primordial purity and that ordinary sentient beings are pure by nature. He then goes on to reason in Establishing Appearances... that because of this nature ignorance is untenable as something to purify.
At the base of all Rongzom's reasonings is that everything is completely unreal, therefore, there is nothing to purify because ignorance is not something substantial or real that needs to be removed.
The topic was not Rongzom but Indian Origins of instantaneous awakening. The quotes used by Rongzom come from Indian Sutras. Ignorance is untenable and ignorance is not substantively real or illusory are all equivalent meanings. One wonders what illustration you imagined you made.
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by SilverFantasy »

Astus wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:55 pmAnd the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.
I deemed it a necessary point to make, just to see what might qualify as 'sudden enlightenment' as found in Chan. For instance, stories of quick attainments are far from being definitive (already the Nikayas have examples for that, like the Bāhiyasutta, but subitism is rejected, e.g. Kīṭāgirisutta, Uposathasutta), even if the case of the Dragon Princess is often quoted in Chan.


(MPPS XXX.5.3)
Shaiksha wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:20 pm The earliest one can probably be found in the Bahiya Sutta - where Bahiya woke up right there after hearing the Buddha's words.

This is interesting though, as one could easily interpret the Bahiya as a proto Chan/Dzogchen type of text, with it's talk of:

“In that case, Bāhiya, you should train like this: ‘In the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.’ That’s how you should train. When you have trained in this way, you won’t be ‘by that’. When you’re not ‘by that’, you won’t be ‘in that’. When you’re not ‘in that’, you won’t be in this world or the world beyond or between the two. Just this is the end of suffering.”"
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:34 pm
Natan wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:33 pm ...ignorance is untenable as something to purify.
...there is nothing to purify because ignorance is not something substantial or real that needs to be removed.
One wonders what illustration you imagined you made.
Your statement could be read that it was not possible to remove ignorance:

untenable:

(especially of a position or view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection.
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:30 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:34 pm

...there is nothing to purify because ignorance is not something substantial or real that needs to be removed.
One wonders what illustration you imagined you made.
Your statement could be read that it was not possible to remove ignorance:

untenable:

(especially of a position or view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection.
Oh well. I guess we're pulling short hairs... I think it is not possible to remove the non-existent. This is the point of the reflection of the black snake in the water. Stomping on it can't kill anything. It just make a splashy mess. Primordial purity means impurity is impossible. Like a pure clear diamond that looks dim in dim light. You are removing dimness from the diamond. Dimness is just not enough light.

So what's the light?
Last edited by Natan on Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by MGeorge116 »

Sudden Enlightenment is also found in the Prajnaparamita Sutra:
Shariputra,
Form does not differ from emptiness,
emptiness does not differ from form.
That which is form is emptiness,
that which is emptiness is form

In the three realms (past, present and future)
all Buddhas depend on Prajna Paramita
and attain Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi.

Gone,
gone,
gone over,
gone fully over.
Awakened!
So be it!
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Aemilius »

Astus wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:59 am
Agent Smith wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:06 amthe concept does exist as akrama mukti (sudden liberation)
It's not a common concept but one used by him only, so it's nothing to do with Buddhism in India.
Shaiksha wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:20 pmThe earliest one can probably be found in the Bahiya Sutta - where Bahiya woke up right there after hearing the Buddha's words.
Aemilius wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:46 amAlso the stream-entry (enlightenment) of Shariputra/Upatishya
See above in this thread: 'stories of quick attainments are far from being definitive (already the Nikayas have examples for that, like the Bāhiyasutta, but subitism is rejected, e.g. Kīṭāgirisutta, Uposathasutta)'
I was replying to Shaiksha's post. And it was wholly relevant. Moreover, in Vishuddhimagga (Path of Purification) there is a traditional term for persons like Shariputra and Maudgalyayana, whose Dharma-eye awakens after hearing once a teaching of Dharma (consisting of few words or few sentences). Vishuddhimagga also gives terms for persons who awaken after hearing a teaching of Dharma repeated twice and for persons who awaken after hearing it repeated thrice. The quick awakening of the Dharma-eye has existed, in case of some persons, at the very beginning.

Also Buddha's sixth convert, Yashas/Yasa, attained Stream-entry after hearing Buddha's teaching once.
"The Buddha and his six arahants visited the home of Yasa the following day. Yasa's mother and his former wife thus became the first two female lay disciples. Upon hearing of Yasa's ordination, four of his closest friends, Vimala, Subahu, Punnaji and Gavampati followed him into the sangha and they too became arahants." (wikipedia: Yasa)
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Astus »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:30 amThe quick awakening of the Dharma-eye has existed, in case of some persons, at the very beginning.
Incidental cases of quick insight are not the same as a specific teaching/method/path identified as providing an immediate realisation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:30 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:32 pm
One wonders what illustration you imagined you made.
Your statement could be read that it was not possible to remove ignorance:

untenable:

(especially of a position or view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection.
Oh well. I guess we're pulling short hairs... I think it is not possible to remove the non-existent. This is the point of the reflection of the black snake in the water. Stomping on it can't kill anything. It just make a splashy mess. Primordial purity means impurity is impossible. Like a pure clear diamond that looks dim in dim light. You are removing dimness from the diamond. Dimness is just not enough light.

So what's the light?
Primordial purity is also not established
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:46 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:30 pm

Your statement could be read that it was not possible to remove ignorance:

untenable:

(especially of a position or view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection.
Oh well. I guess we're pulling short hairs... I think it is not possible to remove the non-existent. This is the point of the reflection of the black snake in the water. Stomping on it can't kill anything. It just make a splashy mess. Primordial purity means impurity is impossible. Like a pure clear diamond that looks dim in dim light. You are removing dimness from the diamond. Dimness is just not enough light.

So what's the light?
Primordial purity is also not established
Is this answering the question I posed?

Is "Primordial purity is also not established" a tenet? An instruction?

One arrives at nonestablishability of anything as a personal experience of Buddhahood by doing what? Thinking this?

I believe Rongzom meant his short texts as manuals as much as exposition...
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:09 pm
I believe Rongzom meant his short texts as manuals as much as exposition...
Primordial purity means nothing is established at all. Still, our minds keep on establishing and refuting all day long.

Rongzom's text is a polemic aimed at Sarma interpretations of the path of transformation. He begins his text by raising a Kadampa opponent's qualm.

But as you noted above, it is off topic here.
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:46 pm
Natan wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:09 pm
I believe Rongzom meant his short texts as manuals as much as exposition...
Primordial purity means nothing is established at all. Still, our minds keep on establishing and refuting all day long.

Rongzom's text is a polemic aimed at Sarma interpretations of the path of transformation. He begins his text by raising a Kadampa opponent's qualm.

But as you noted above, it is off topic here.
So that's what you mean by established... The contrary of refuted.

Seems Rongzompa is doing more than refuting. He's also establishing appearances are Dharmadhatu, the unestablishable. Sort of a koan there.

Anyhow... The scholastic types think what the Nyingmapa thought was he was giving commentary on Guhyagarbha.
Last edited by Natan on Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:23 pm
Seems Rongzompa is doing more than refuting. He's also establishing appearances are Dharmadhatu, the unestablishable. Sort of a koan there.
Rongzom belongs to the rab tu mi gnas pa, or anti-foundationalist, division of Madhyamaka, like every good Dzogchenpa.
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:09 pm
Natan wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:23 pm
Seems Rongzompa is doing more than refuting. He's also establishing appearances are Dharmadhatu, the unestablishable. Sort of a koan there.
Rongzom belongs to the rab tu mi gnas pa, or anti-foundationalist, division of Madhyamaka, like every good Dzogchenpa.
Rongzompa is not just Madhyamaka, just like Garab Dorje and Manjushrimitra were not.

Rongzompa established Dharmadhatu in three ways: By it's intrinsic nature which liberates on faith alone; by it's factual efficacious power to give rise to divine qualities; and by the dependent arising of pure appearances.

He's definitely not saying "Even Dharmadhatu is not established," because he uses three ways to establish that Vajrayana is superior to 2nd Turning Mahayana/Madhyamaka and is a quantum leap different in is ability to reveal the Buddhanature.
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Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen

Post by Aemilius »

Astus wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:21 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:30 amThe quick awakening of the Dharma-eye has existed, in case of some persons, at the very beginning.
Incidental cases of quick insight are not the same as a specific teaching/method/path identified as providing an immediate realisation.
Quite naturally so, but it is not a method. Rather it is a property of the receivers of the Dharma. And the quick realizers are rare. In a sanskrit language sutra named Arthavinishcaya (Gathering the Meanings) there are Four Courses of Meditation (pratipad); one of the four courses is quick and easy.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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