Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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Kai lord
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:13 pm As Dzogchen teachings is the pinnacle of secret mantra, buddhahood may take only a few years at most if one is especially diligent.
That is what the tantras and commentaries state in theory, in that regard its rather similar to Vajrayogini teachings. But practically speaking, only a few are really that fast. Some masters took decades as stated in their biographies. Majority of us, well, bardo....

Maybe there is more to that "diligence" than it seems.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by fckw »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pm That is what the tantras and commentaries state in theory, in that regard its rather similar to Vajrayogini teachings. But practically speaking, only a few are really that fast. Some masters took decades as stated in their biographies. Majority of us, well, bardo....

Maybe there is more to that "diligence" than it seems.
I'm still waiting for some reliable statistics...
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pmbardo....
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Terma »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pmbardo....
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
I did not know this. Interesting.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pmbardo....
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
Yes agreed but why seven? Why that number?
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Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pmbardo....
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
Yes agreed but why seven? Why that number?
Its the number we find in the Lama Yantik, Gongpa Zangthal, and so on. As for why, I have not seen a reason given.

I can speculate however that it may have to do with the fact that our bodies in the bardo lack the seven tissues, rasa to sukra.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Toenail »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pmbardo....
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
Does this go for everyone? I sometimes think 'Oh of course with 7 times more clarity in the Bardo I will easily remember the Shitro Mandala or recognize these deities if they appear' etc. But the Bardo is always painted as cruel and fearsome delusion? How is it possible for me not to recognize lets say Vajrasattva?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by stoneinfocus »

Toenail wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pmbardo....
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
Does this go for everyone? I sometimes think 'Oh of course with 7 times more clarity in the Bardo I will easily remember the Shitro Mandala or recognize these deities if they appear' etc. But the Bardo is always painted as cruel and fearsome delusion? How is it possible for me not to recognize lets say Vajrasattva?
All of your perceptions are also 7 times stronger, so you have plenty of opportunities for confusion as well.
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Shaiksha
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Shaiksha »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:53 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:46 pm Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't,
Alan Wallace is chiefly responsible for this misapprehension and he repeats it to his students over and over again.
I have always thought that was the case (no human teachers) but I am willing to stand corrected. I read the autobiography a few years ago and came away with the impression - he did have a lama who taught him to write and read but the book did not say anything beyond that. Further, here is a quote from the foreword by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche:
Almost all lamas have received their education and training from other human teachers, yet Dudjom Lingpa’s story is completely shocking and unique. Particularly now, among this generation, he remains a most powerful master. No human guide educated Dudjom Lingpa; his connection came straight from different buddhas’ teachings and empowerments. His lineage is truly direct, unlike any other...

If I have the time (which I doubt), I may go back to re-read the whole thing again but at this stage the foreword seems to be good enough for me as it is from a reputable lama. No?
Last edited by Shaiksha on Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:25 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:50 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 am
Are there even kayas or anything else which is not a self-appearance of one's mind? What does "perceiving the sambhogakaya directly" actually entail?
Yes, outer objects are not a self appearance of the mind.

It means being able to be in the presence of the sambhogakaya directly; the sambhogakaya is a rupakaya.
I mean as in appearances reflected in one's mind, not as a mentally fabricated image. The sambhogakaya corresponds to clarity aspect of one's consciousness meaning someone who fully understands and experiences kadak and lhundrub in union is in the presence of the sambhogakaya is that correct? Doesn't this correspond to the stage of Seeing?

Or are you saying that on the stages of Seeing, the sambhogakaya one sees is a mental construct like in kyerim practice? I don't think it would be fair to characterize entopic visions from the relevant practices as mentally fabricated though since their function is more like to provide an example or sign of how everything else is.

In other words whether entopic visions or objective phenomena, are they not all kadak + lhundrub and thus are manifestations of the sambhogakaya?

Or does it literally mean that when someone's obscurations are cleared, then in their view, the person next to them gets red skin and takes the form of Amitabha or Pandaravasini? But clarity is not constrained by outer forms no?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Shaiksha »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:09 am
tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:39 am The more general question seems to be: where is does the epistemic authority for Vajrayana - in general - lie?

If we say: what is written in the Tantras, then we are privileging text ahead of guru…
We accept, axiomatically, that the tantras arise from an nonerroneous source. But it’s clear gurus can be in error. There is no tantra, anywhere, that asserts gurus are axiomatically faultless.

The point of the Dzogchen Tantras I cited make this point. There are many other tantras, both sarma and Nyingma that reinforce my points.
In relation to this, tantras and other authoritative scriptures were revealed or written or composed during the time when it was just not possible to receive empowerments remotely as they did not have the technology. This issue was mute. So rather than reading into tantras and sutras about this issue, we should rely on the realization or wisdom mind of the living teacher/master to resolve this issue or decide for ourselves. Any comment or criticism of this view?

Anyway, they say that the proof is in the pudding. If this works, we should have students of Garchen Rinpoche who receives empowerments and put them into practice and achieve realizations. Unfortunately, GR is not my guru and I have never received any empowerments from him and could not comment. But, in theory, it is possible to prove the efficacy of the method. No?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:41 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:12 pm

Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
Yes agreed but why seven? Why that number?
Its the number we find in the Lama Yantik, Gongpa Zangthal, and so on. As for why, I have not seen a reason given.

I can speculate however that it may have to do with the fact that our bodies in the bardo lack the seven tissues, rasa to sukra.
:focus:

This is about Garchen Rinpoche and Drikung Kagyu which has nothing to do with Bardos and Nyingthig. Milarepa had songs mocking "Dzogchen teachings." There's only one "Bardo" that matters and your in it.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by PeterC »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:17 am Anyway, they say that the proof is in the pudding. If this works, we should have students of Garchen Rinpoche who receives empowerments and put them into practice and achieve realizations. Unfortunately, GR is not my guru and I have never received any empowerments from him and could not comment. But, in theory, it is possible to prove the efficacy of the method. No?
No, because you cannot establish another person's level of realization.

Much has been said on this topic in this and other threads, and I'm not sure it's one we should continue recycling. But I would say that anyone who wants to receive teachings from HEGr, whether or not they do so online, should make the effort to meet him in person while he is still in this world. He's here now, but for how much longer, nobody can know. Everyone I know who is a student of his has done that. I'm sure there probably are people who have only met him online, but I don't know any of them personally.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ratna »

PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:36 am But I would say that anyone who wants to receive teachings from HEGr, whether or not they do so online, should make the effort to meet him in person while he is still in this world. He's here now, but for how much longer, nobody can know.
:good:
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Shaiksha »

PeterC wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:36 am
Shaiksha wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:17 am Anyway, they say that the proof is in the pudding. If this works, we should have students of Garchen Rinpoche who receives empowerments and put them into practice and achieve realizations. Unfortunately, GR is not my guru and I have never received any empowerments from him and could not comment. But, in theory, it is possible to prove the efficacy of the method. No?
No, because you cannot establish another person's level of realization.

Much has been said on this topic in this and other threads, and I'm not sure it's one we should continue recycling. But I would say that anyone who wants to receive teachings from HEGr, whether or not they do so online, should make the effort to meet him in person while he is still in this world. He's here now, but for how much longer, nobody can know. Everyone I know who is a student of his has done that. I'm sure there probably are people who have only met him online, but I don't know any of them personally.
Absolutely. If we can, we should even live with the teacher for numerous years - it has been done that way for thousands of years and that's the gold standard.

You made an implicit assumption that people opted to not attend the in-person empowerment out of convenience. There are sometimes genuine barriers/obstacles to do so. I personally think there should be no excuse to not attend online empowerments regardless of the time (like 12am to 3am) and you have to work the following morning, if you are really serious about Dharma. Travelling around half the world is even less of a possibility if you do not have the means and/or have family obligations. We do not know the personal circumstances of everyone. So, this question becomes relevant.

My apology if this has been extensively discussed elsewhere - the thread just happens to be alive and I just wanted to clarify things.
Last edited by Shaiksha on Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:17 am

But, in theory, it is possible to prove the efficacy of the method. No?
Some online empowerments are possible. Others are not. Recorded empowerments cannot ripen anyone for the reasons described above.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Kai lord »

Natan wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:15 am :focus:

This is about Garchen Rinpoche and Drikung Kagyu.........
Okok, I shall share Drupon Rinchen Rinpoche's account on his devotion for his root Guru, Garchen Rinpoche.

For those who are lazy to read all, here's a brief extract:
..........There was this time, when Drubwang Pachung Rinpoche (1901-1988), who is the lineage holder, (he is the lama on the far right side here [points behind him]), he was very old at that time and was not going to live for much longer. Garchen Rinpoche was traveling in Tibet to Pemako, in an area called Kongpo where he stayed. He was on his way to Pemako to meet his mother. From Nangchen, where Rinpoche came from, there are basically two roads, one that goes to Lhasa and one that doesn’t go there. The road to Lhasa was blocked and also there was a flooding, so there was not really a road and it was not permissible to travel on it. At that time, Rinpoche ran into some monks who told him about Pachung Rinpoche but actually there was not really anywhere to go because Drikung Thil, goes through Lhasa but Rinpoche was able to pass through the road in order to meet Pachung Rinpoche. He went there and at that time he was really close to death but he didn’t die then. In fact, he intended to die some years before, but HH Chungtsang Rinpoche had supplicated him to stay, so he stayed another three years.

Then Garchen Rinpoche came to see him (Pachung Rinpoche) at Drikung Thil monastery and told him that now is the time to transmit all the empowerments, instructions and transmissions of the Drikung Kagyu. Pachung Rinpoche who is the lineage holder had originally intended to transmit that whole Drikung lineage to HH Chetsang Rinpoche but wasn’t able to go to Tibet. Therefore, Chetsang Rinpoche assigned Garchen Rinpoche to be the lineage holder, the one who is in charge of the lineage’s teachings and gave him the entire lineage in the form of mind transference. It was basically transferred from within a state of Mahamudra. This is how Garchen Rinpoche met Pachung Rinpoche.”

After that Rinpoche left, and then soon later Pachung Rinpoche passed away [1988]. At that time, Garchen Rinpoche was in Lhasa and about to go back to Nangchen. He had already ordered the car and it was already there to pick him up and bring him back to Nangchen. However, as Rinpoche had passed away, HH Chungtsang Rinpoche had tried to contact Garchen Rinpoche to serve as the vajra master for the funeral ceremonies. So, he sent a few monks but in those days it was not easy to find somebody, there were no telephones. So they were looking for him and they asked around and in a shop and those monks said ‘yes we are Gar monastery monks’. Then they brought him to Garchen Rinpoche and actually his car was already there, but because HH asked him to be the vajra master to preside over those ceremonies, he cancelled the car in order to follow these instructions and did not go to Nangchen after all. So Garchen Rinpoche, went to the funeral services for Pachung Rinpoche where he acted as the vajra master.

The reason for mentioning all of that is because in the entire lineage that’s the reason why Garchen Rinpoche is considered to be so precious and important. He was the one who received and was entrusted with the entire lineage and all the empowerments and the instructions and so on. In any case, that was a time when I have not yet met him personally myself.”.........
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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Some posts have been split to this topic: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 56#p648656
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ZopaChotso »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:16 pm
Natan wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:15 am :focus:

This is about Garchen Rinpoche and Drikung Kagyu.........
Okok, I shall share Drupon Rinchen Rinpoche's account on his devotion for his root Guru, Garchen Rinpoche.

For those who are lazy to read all, here's a brief extract:
..........There was this time, when Drubwang Pachung Rinpoche (1901-1988), who is the lineage holder, (he is the lama on the far right side here [points behind him]), he was very old at that time and was not going to live for much longer. Garchen Rinpoche was traveling in Tibet to Pemako, in an area called Kongpo where he stayed. He was on his way to Pemako to meet his mother. From Nangchen, where Rinpoche came from, there are basically two roads, one that goes to Lhasa and one that doesn’t go there. The road to Lhasa was blocked and also there was a flooding, so there was not really a road and it was not permissible to travel on it. At that time, Rinpoche ran into some monks who told him about Pachung Rinpoche but actually there was not really anywhere to go because Drikung Thil, goes through Lhasa but Rinpoche was able to pass through the road in order to meet Pachung Rinpoche. He went there and at that time he was really close to death but he didn’t die then. In fact, he intended to die some years before, but HH Chungtsang Rinpoche had supplicated him to stay, so he stayed another three years.

Then Garchen Rinpoche came to see him (Pachung Rinpoche) at Drikung Thil monastery and told him that now is the time to transmit all the empowerments, instructions and transmissions of the Drikung Kagyu. Pachung Rinpoche who is the lineage holder had originally intended to transmit that whole Drikung lineage to HH Chetsang Rinpoche but wasn’t able to go to Tibet. Therefore, Chetsang Rinpoche assigned Garchen Rinpoche to be the lineage holder, the one who is in charge of the lineage’s teachings and gave him the entire lineage in the form of mind transference. It was basically transferred from within a state of Mahamudra. This is how Garchen Rinpoche met Pachung Rinpoche.”

After that Rinpoche left, and then soon later Pachung Rinpoche passed away [1988]. At that time, Garchen Rinpoche was in Lhasa and about to go back to Nangchen. He had already ordered the car and it was already there to pick him up and bring him back to Nangchen. However, as Rinpoche had passed away, HH Chungtsang Rinpoche had tried to contact Garchen Rinpoche to serve as the vajra master for the funeral ceremonies. So, he sent a few monks but in those days it was not easy to find somebody, there were no telephones. So they were looking for him and they asked around and in a shop and those monks said ‘yes we are Gar monastery monks’. Then they brought him to Garchen Rinpoche and actually his car was already there, but because HH asked him to be the vajra master to preside over those ceremonies, he cancelled the car in order to follow these instructions and did not go to Nangchen after all. So Garchen Rinpoche, went to the funeral services for Pachung Rinpoche where he acted as the vajra master.

The reason for mentioning all of that is because in the entire lineage that’s the reason why Garchen Rinpoche is considered to be so precious and important. He was the one who received and was entrusted with the entire lineage and all the empowerments and the instructions and so on. In any case, that was a time when I have not yet met him personally myself.”.........
HEGR has this lineage, if you follow this lineage, and consider him to be your Guru, his view about online empowerments is the only one you should care about. He says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

Toenail wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:12 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:33 pmbardo....
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.
Does this go for everyone? I sometimes think 'Oh of course with 7 times more clarity in the Bardo I will easily remember the Shitro Mandala or recognize these deities if they appear' etc. But the Bardo is always painted as cruel and fearsome delusion? How is it possible for me not to recognize lets say Vajrasattva?
It is that way because so one can really "drop it", drop the grasping to the "self".

This way the wrong views are erradicated.
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