Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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T@sh!
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by T@sh! »

My feeling on this is that it is probably safer to stick with receiving lung online and via recording but not empowerments. I trust H.E. Garchen Rinpoche, but not everyone has the same level of receptability. I took Refuge and Bodhisattva Vows in the Nyingma and Karma Kagyu lineages, respectively, and I was told by a Karma Kagyu lama that you cannot receive an empowerment from a recording when I wanted to know if I could still take the Avalokiteshvara empowerment that HHDL gave in 2020 as its still available online, but as mentioned I was told that to take an empowerment via recoding is not possible. Its probably best to go with what a lama whom you trust 100% says and what you also feel based on your own personal experience.
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heart
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by heart »

T@sh! wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:18 pm My feeling on this is that it is probably safer to stick with receiving lung online and via recording but not empowerments. I trust H.E. Garchen Rinpoche, but not everyone has the same level of receptability. I took Refuge and Bodhisattva Vows in the Nyingma and Karma Kagyu lineages, respectively, and I was told by a Karma Kagyu lama that you cannot receive an empowerment from a recording when I wanted to know if I could still take the Avalokiteshvara empowerment that HHDL gave in 2020 as its still available online, but as mentioned I was told that to take an empowerment via recoding is not possible. Its probably best to go with what a lama whom you trust 100% says and what you also feel based on your own personal experience.
The same is true about lung, recordings just don't work. There are plenty of lamas that don't accept recordings as transmissions.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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ThreeVows
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

heart wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:32 pm
T@sh! wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:18 pm My feeling on this is that it is probably safer to stick with receiving lung online and via recording but not empowerments. I trust H.E. Garchen Rinpoche, but not everyone has the same level of receptability. I took Refuge and Bodhisattva Vows in the Nyingma and Karma Kagyu lineages, respectively, and I was told by a Karma Kagyu lama that you cannot receive an empowerment from a recording when I wanted to know if I could still take the Avalokiteshvara empowerment that HHDL gave in 2020 as its still available online, but as mentioned I was told that to take an empowerment via recoding is not possible. Its probably best to go with what a lama whom you trust 100% says and what you also feel based on your own personal experience.
The same is true about lung, recordings just don't work. There are plenty of lamas that don't accept recordings as transmissions.

/magnus
FWIW, I know of one Nyingma lama who fairly forcefully, as I recall, said that one could not receive a wang without being in person. But he basically recorded certain mantras and explicitly said that his students could listen to the recordings and that would suffice as a lung for saying the mantra.

Perhaps he's simply realized enough to always be in such a state that it counts, who knows. Just figured to throw 2 cents into this nest-of-vipers discussion.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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jet.urgyen
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

If a teacher A says his transmission can be taken by recording, thats so, is up to him/her since he/she is responsible for everything.

If another teacher B says that it can' be that way, now that's just another B's opinion since he/she is responsible for nothing.
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heart
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by heart »

Seeker12 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:15 pm
heart wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:32 pm
T@sh! wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:18 pm My feeling on this is that it is probably safer to stick with receiving lung online and via recording but not empowerments. I trust H.E. Garchen Rinpoche, but not everyone has the same level of receptability. I took Refuge and Bodhisattva Vows in the Nyingma and Karma Kagyu lineages, respectively, and I was told by a Karma Kagyu lama that you cannot receive an empowerment from a recording when I wanted to know if I could still take the Avalokiteshvara empowerment that HHDL gave in 2020 as its still available online, but as mentioned I was told that to take an empowerment via recoding is not possible. Its probably best to go with what a lama whom you trust 100% says and what you also feel based on your own personal experience.
The same is true about lung, recordings just don't work. There are plenty of lamas that don't accept recordings as transmissions.

/magnus
FWIW, I know of one Nyingma lama who fairly forcefully, as I recall, said that one could not receive a wang without being in person. But he basically recorded certain mantras and explicitly said that his students could listen to the recordings and that would suffice as a lung for saying the mantra.

Perhaps he's simply realized enough to always be in such a state that it counts, who knows. Just figured to throw 2 cents into this nest-of-vipers discussion.

I don't want to do this discussion again but all my lamas think that if it isn't live it isn't.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:37 pm
I don't want to do this discussion again but all my lamas think that if it isn't live it isn't.
Not exactly. Khenchen Namdrol went through a list of empowerments in a major empowerment, and specified which could be given online, and which would not. In the end, the lower vase initiation cannot be given on line, since it uses substances. The three higher initiations, he reasoned, could be given online, because even the substances they use are symbolic.

Meaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.
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heart
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:17 pm
heart wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:37 pm
I don't want to do this discussion again but all my lamas think that if it isn't live it isn't.
Not exactly. Khenchen Namdrol went through a list of empowerments in a major empowerment, and specified which could be given online, and which would not. In the end, the lower vase initiation cannot be given on line, since it uses substances. The three higher initiations, he reasoned, could be given online, because even the substances they use are symbolic.

Meaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.
I am completely fine with online live, but it has to be live. No recordings. But it seems Garchen Rinpoche don't agree strangely enough.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:26 pm

I am completely fine with online live, but it has to be live. No recordings. But it seems Garchen Rinpoche don't agree strangely enough.

/magnus
Agreed. The only reason I replied is that you left out the "online" part. :-)
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:05 pm
heart wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:26 pm

I am completely fine with online live, but it has to be live. No recordings. But it seems Garchen Rinpoche don't agree strangely enough.

/magnus
Agreed. The only reason I replied is that you left out the "online" part. :-)
:smile:
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Astus
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:17 pmMeaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, Summer Teaching, 20:40-21:19)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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conebeckham
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by conebeckham »

Astus wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:17 pmMeaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, Summer Teaching, 20:40-21:19)
By this logic, many who attend live in-person empowerments don’t “receive” the empowerment.

FWIW, I believe the more intimate the better. A few serious students in a small room > hundreds + live students in a a big hall > a live webcast. I don’t believe empowerment is granted via recordings, but that’s just my opinion, man.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:17 pmMeaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, Summer Teaching, 20:40-21:19)
That’s not really what we are talking about here. You ought to stay in your lane. Vajrayana is not your speciality.
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Astus
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Astus »

conebeckham wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:40 amBy this logic, many who attend live in-person empowerments don’t “receive” the empowerment.
I guess that's up to where a line is drawn.

'In my own ignorant opinion, all of these must come together as a foundation. In particular, it is my understanding that the vital point is to receive the blessings and realize the nature of the empowerment that is pointed out, which is based on the strength of the meeting between the master's blessings and the disciple's devotion. It appears to me that once you receive such a blessing, (realization of the nature of the empowerment) does not depend solely upon a material empowerment being or not being conferred.'
(Empowerment by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, p 37)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Astus
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:35 amThat’s not really what we are talking about here. You ought to stay in your lane. Vajrayana is not your speciality.
I claim no such thing. It merely seems to me that there are various interpretations, and some allow even the vase empowerment to happen online.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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conebeckham
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by conebeckham »

Astus wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:23 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:40 amBy this logic, many who attend live in-person empowerments don’t “receive” the empowerment.
I guess that's up to where a line is drawn.

'In my own ignorant opinion, all of these must come together as a foundation. In particular, it is my understanding that the vital point is to receive the blessings and realize the nature of the empowerment that is pointed out, which is based on the strength of the meeting between the master's blessings and the disciple's devotion. It appears to me that once you receive such a blessing, (realization of the nature of the empowerment) does not depend solely upon a material empowerment being or not being conferred.'
(Empowerment by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, p 37)


The context is missing here. He is talking about various traditions of empowerment, some of which do not have “material objects” to confer blessing. I think Natsok Rangdrol would have laughed at the notion of “recorded empowerments.” The question is how the blessings can be conferred between master and disciple initially.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Natan
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Natan »

conebeckham wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:08 pm
Astus wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:23 pm
conebeckham wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:40 amBy this logic, many who attend live in-person empowerments don’t “receive” the empowerment.
I guess that's up to where a line is drawn.

'In my own ignorant opinion, all of these must come together as a foundation. In particular, it is my understanding that the vital point is to receive the blessings and realize the nature of the empowerment that is pointed out, which is based on the strength of the meeting between the master's blessings and the disciple's devotion. It appears to me that once you receive such a blessing, (realization of the nature of the empowerment) does not depend solely upon a material empowerment being or not being conferred.'
(Empowerment by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, p 37)


The context is missing here. He is talking about various traditions of empowerment, some of which do not have “material objects” to confer blessing. I think Natsok Rangdrol would have laughed at the notion of “recorded empowerments.” The question is how the blessings can be conferred between master and disciple initially.
Drikungpas have an idiosyncratic view of these things. They are putting devotion in front of everything. The meaning of the empowerment is not expected to be understood initially. Not everything requires empowerments over there. Heartfelt devotion is the whole enchilada. So in that context it makes sense for GR to allow empowerments by recording because what will be important is the coming transmissions of Mahamudra and guru yoga sadhana. The traditional tantric practice honestly won't be taught until three year retreat. In a sense and don't take this the wrong way, but until one plans on doing these methods in a complete fashion it's doesn't really matter how the empowerment goes down. When you are your lama get real you get all the steps and go take care of business.
T@sh!
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by T@sh! »

Well my final opinion on this is if Garchen Rinpoche says you can receive an empowerment online then you either trust him and his realisations or you don't. And honestly who are we to distrust Garchen Rinpoche??? He is obviously a Buddha.
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ThreeVows
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Astus wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:17 pmMeaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, Summer Teaching, 20:40-21:19)
There are also stories about some master for example having a dream about Khyentse Wangpo or Vimalamitra or whatever who might put a text on their head and confer the transmission of all termas, or of the full Kangyur, or things like this.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:41 am
Astus wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:17 pmMeaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, Summer Teaching, 20:40-21:19)
There are also stories about some master for example having a dream about Khyentse Wangpo or Vimalamitra or whatever who might put a text on their head and confer the transmission of all termas, or of the full Kangyur, or things like this.
You can be certain they all first received everything in the normal conventional way.
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conebeckham
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by conebeckham »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:52 am
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:41 am
Astus wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:05 pm

'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, Summer Teaching, 20:40-21:19)
There are also stories about some master for example having a dream about Khyentse Wangpo or Vimalamitra or whatever who might put a text on their head and confer the transmission of all termas, or of the full Kangyur, or things like this.
You can be certain they all first received everything in the normal conventional way.
The normal, conventional, intimate, live-in-the-same-room way, in fact.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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