Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

[conebeckham]

I guess that's up to where a line is drawn.

'In my own ignorant opinion, all of these must come together as a foundation. In particular, it is my understanding that the vital point is to receive the blessings and realize the nature of the empowerment that is pointed out, which is based on the strength of the meeting between the master's blessings and the disciple's devotion. It appears to me that once you receive such a blessing, (realization of the nature of the empowerment) does not depend solely upon a material empowerment being or not being conferred.'
(Empowerment by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, p 37)

The context is missing here. He is talking about various traditions of empowerment, some of which do not have “material objects” to confer blessing. I think Natsok Rangdrol would have laughed at the notion of “recorded empowerments.” The question is how the blessings can be conferred between master and disciple initially.

Drikungpas have an idiosyncratic view of these things. They are putting devotion in front of everything. The meaning of the empowerment is not expected to be understood initially. Not everything requires empowerments over there. Heartfelt devotion is the whole enchilada. So in that context it makes sense for GR to allow empowerments by recording because what will be important is the coming transmissions of Mahamudra and guru yoga sadhana. The traditional tantric practice honestly won't be taught until three year retreat. In a sense and don't take this the wrong way, but until one plans on doing these methods in a complete fashion it's doesn't really matter how the empowerment goes down. When you are your lama get real you get all the steps and go take care of business.

I am not Drikungpa, but I do not believe this “devotion-above-all” approach is idiosyncratic to them. You can be sure I am a Kagyupa, Nathan. I can tell you, also, the complete transmissions and methods can be available outside of three year retreat, in some circumstances. But being exposed to the complete instruction is just the beginning. Outside of a strict retreat you have to plan on decades of practice and continual instruction.

Again, there is realistically no way this sort of practice can be accomplished, or even attempted, without live and interactive guidance with a guru in real time, over the course of an extended period—years, even decades. I just want to encourage everyone to make a connection with a genuine guru, and to establish a working, long-term relationship. Getting an on-line empowerment and reciting some sort of sadhana is great, but it is just an initial step on the path. Go find a qualified guru, meet him or her in person, and make a commitment.

[ninespokes]

Have any of you who doubt that an empowerment can be given via a recording tried to receive it that way? Because if not, where do you base your opinion on?

[Ayu]

Have any of you who doubt that an empowerment can be given via a recording tried to receive it that way? Because if not, where do you base your opinion on?

I think, one of the reasons is simply because most lamas do not allow recordings of empowerments. That's a quite clear statement.

[heart]

Have any of you who doubt that an empowerment can be given via a recording tried to receive it that way? Because if not, where do you base your opinion on?

I already mentioned this above it is based on what all my teachers say.

/magnus

[Natan]

The context is missing here. He is talking about various traditions of empowerment, some of which do not have “material objects” to confer blessing. I think Natsok Rangdrol would have laughed at the notion of “recorded empowerments.” The question is how the blessings can be conferred between master and disciple initially.

Drikungpas have an idiosyncratic view of these things. They are putting devotion in front of everything. The meaning of the empowerment is not expected to be understood initially. Not everything requires empowerments over there. Heartfelt devotion is the whole enchilada. So in that context it makes sense for GR to allow empowerments by recording because what will be important is the coming transmissions of Mahamudra and guru yoga sadhana. The traditional tantric practice honestly won't be taught until three year retreat. In a sense and don't take this the wrong way, but until one plans on doing these methods in a complete fashion it's doesn't really matter how the empowerment goes down. When you are your lama get real you get all the steps and go take care of business.

I am not Drikungpa, but I do not believe this “devotion-above-all” approach is idiosyncratic to them. You can be sure I am a Kagyupa, Nathan. I can tell you, also, the complete transmissions and methods can be available outside of three year retreat, in some circumstances. But being exposed to the complete instruction is just the beginning. Outside of a strict retreat you have to plan on decades of practice and continual instruction.

Again, there is realistically no way this sort of practice can be accomplished, or even attempted, without live and interactive guidance with a guru in real time, over the course of an extended period—years, even decades. I just want to encourage everyone to make a connection with a genuine guru, and to establish a working, long-term relationship. Getting an on-line empowerment and reciting some sort of sadhana is great, but it is just an initial step on the path. Go find a qualified guru, meet him or her in person, and make a commitment.

To make it clearer... They put devotion and Mahamudra over tantric empowerment practice... This might be ideosyncratic to them. I'm pretty sure it is. I agree one needs in person. But there's a caveat to that.

Nyingma lamas like Khenchen Namdrol are not the personal time kind of lama. He gives these very extensive transmissions, doesn't even get much into Q&A or personal interviews and one is expected to have to tools to go do the job. Many of these high lamas there are buried in entourage and one on one time is rare. At least that's been my experience.

What's important is empowerment of one degree or another, transmission of a method, instructions on the sadhana and time to complete the recommended steps until the signs appear. People who do this are like 1% or less of people getting into Vajrayana. I don't know you that well, but we met and I learned something about your history and practice and my lama also said you've got a special practice. You were fortunate enough to get into high level Mahamudra with a very unique and special lineage, have immersion into the way of life. So replicating what you have is a tall order.

I have a little experience with recorded empowerments, because I wanted to experiment if I will have similar visions and experiences that always were so unusual and fascinating during live and in person empowerments. I did that with Garchen Rinpoche and with a Geluk Guhyasamaja and I forget the lama now. But I still experienced those signs in dreams that only I ever had during empowerments. Could be it was my karmaphala, faith, devotion, strong enthusiasm I don't know. But I am sure if Garchen Rinpoche says recorded empowerments are A-OK, then at least with him one should trust it's validity and ignore all these naysayers here whose own lamas.comtradict GR.

He has sadhanas and one can get into stuff very sincerely and go see him or contact Ina if one wants to get in contact. There's Drubpon Rinchen Dorje there who is really amazing, khenpos and all the good stuff.. Definitely when one is enthusiastic one will want to do those things. If one does not want to do those things one is not enthusiastic and one will get a little blessing or education from a recording.

[ThreeVows]

Just to be clear, Jigme Lingpa specifically discusses four broad types of receiving empowerment, one of which is the manner with ritual objects, etc, and he specifically says we should avoid bias and denigration of the other manners.

I'm not necessarily saying that this applies to Garchen Rinpoche's recorded, online empowerments, or recorded lungs by anyone, or whatever, nor am I necessarily saying that it doesn't. But there does seem to be a pervasive belief that the ONLY manner of receiving empowerment is via the in-person, in-the-flesh, from an ordinary-human-flesh-and-blood-teacher, using ritual objects manner. While this way is excellent, of course, and for many of us may be the thing to orient ourselves towards, it is not the only way.

FWIW.

Specifically he says that there are four broad ways, as Atisha discusses - the empowerment given orally by the teacher, the empowerment through the blessing of the yidam deity, the empowerment through the prophetic injunction of the vajra dakinis, and the empowerment received through the creative power of the nature of one's own mind.

As for the first type, he says,

"The first of these four categories includes all empowermentes given according to an empowerment ritual."

He says about the four in general,

"Disciples may attain the result - namely, accomplishment - on the basis of any one of these empowerments. It is therefore important to have a pure perception of all of them and to refrain from thinking, out of partiality for one, that the others are inauthentic, whether in their enumeration or because of the way they are given and received."

Anyway, again, whether this applies to Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments I feel no particular inclination to discuss myself here. But again, I think it is actually a problem more than some might realize to firmly hold to the belief that the ritual manner of receiving empowerments is the only way. Your miles may vary, as some say, perhaps. I don't expect I will respond again here.

[escargotmycargo]

Really helpful reference from Jigme Lingpa, Seeker12. Can you please share what text it is from? Thank you!

[ThreeVows]

Really helpful reference from Jigme Lingpa, Seeker12. Can you please share what text it is from? Thank you!

Treasury of Precious Qualities, page 122 of I'm ... 96% certain the second volume. I'm pretty sure it's the second volume but don't sue me if it's the 1st. It has to be, actually, looking at the index online, as it looks like the section on empowerment starts on page 112.

[escargotmycargo]

Awesome, thank you!

[Natan]

Just to be clear, Jigme Lingpa specifically discusses four broad types of receiving empowerment, one of which is the manner with ritual objects, etc, and he specifically says we should avoid bias and denigration of the other manners.

I'm not necessarily saying that this applies to Garchen Rinpoche's recorded, online empowerments, or recorded lungs by anyone, or whatever, nor am I necessarily saying that it doesn't. But there does seem to be a pervasive belief that the ONLY manner of receiving empowerment is via the in-person, in-the-flesh, from an ordinary-human-flesh-and-blood-teacher, using ritual objects manner. While this way is excellent, of course, and for many of us may be the thing to orient ourselves towards, it is not the only way.

FWIW.

Specifically he says that there are four broad ways, as Atisha discusses - the empowerment given orally by the teacher, the empowerment through the blessing of the yidam deity, the empowerment through the prophetic injunction of the vajra dakinis, and the empowerment received through the creative power of the nature of one's own mind.

As for the first type, he says,

"The first of these four categories includes all empowermentes given according to an empowerment ritual."

He says about the four in general,

"Disciples may attain the result - namely, accomplishment - on the basis of any one of these empowerments. It is therefore important to have a pure perception of all of them and to refrain from thinking, out of partiality for one, that the others are inauthentic, whether in their enumeration or because of the way they are given and received."

Anyway, again, whether this applies to Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments I feel no particular inclination to discuss myself here. But again, I think it is actually a problem more than some might realize to firmly hold to the belief that the ritual manner of receiving empowerments is the only way. Your miles may vary, as some say, perhaps. I don't expect I will respond again here.

This is an important point, and one possibly lost in the sauce for some who appear to be leading the pack online.

[Malcolm]

"Disciples may attain the result - namely, accomplishment - on the basis of any one of these empowerments.

With respect to receiving empowerment from a yidam, one must have already received that empowerment. Because without an empowerment, one doe not have a yidam to speak of. But if one receives empowerment from a yidam after one has received a yidam from one's guru, after that, it is proper and correct. But running around claiming that one has received an empowerment from Tara without every having received her empowerment from a human master is just a source of laughter.

Claiming to have a prophetic declaration from the ḍākinīs is also quite unlikely to be believed. And the rig pa'i rsal dbang is not something one gives oneself, and this is explicitly stated in the Dzogchen tantras and commentaries.

I don't expect I will respond again here.

There is no empowerment if there is no guru. And ordinary human beings cannot perceive the sambhogakāya at all. Actually, neither can bodhisattvas on the stages until the eighth bhumi.

[Soma999]

Thanks Seeker. This is interesting.

Many people can access, not totally, but partially, or some glimpse, to the sambogakaya. This is not a doctrinal theories. This is something that can be seen and experienced.

I don’t understand why people come to complain and say i don’t agree. Like if their opinions matter.

I saw a post that details what GR or drikung master implies or belief. That is so surprising, how can someone know ? We don’t know ourself, but we know what think great lamas. Surprising.

The question is quiet precise, and the answer from GR is absolutely crystal clear, and he gives the theory behind this view.

Now if people disagree, the world is vast, go find a place that goes with your feelings and beliefs. If you want to open yourself and experiments, you may be surprised.

Texts were written for a specific time. They are useful, but now is the time of direct experience. Less dogma, more experiences. Otherwise you will be stuck with a mental full of concepts that will bring nowhere.

[ThreeVows]

Thanks Seeker. This is interesting.

Many people can access, not totally, but partially, or some glimpse, to the sambogakaya. This is not a doctrinal theories. This is something that can be seen and experienced.

I don’t understand why people come to complain and say i don’t agree. Like if their opinions matter.

The question is quiet precise, and the answer from GR is absolutely crystal clear, and he gives the theory behind this view.

Now if people disagree, the world is vast, go find a place that goes with your feelings and beliefs. If you want to open yourself and experiments, you may be surprised.

Well, there is the sambhogakaya proper and then there are the half-nirmanakaya reflections, so to speak. According to Longchenpa, as I recall, the sambhogakaya proper is only know to Buddhas, but Bodhisattvas on the Bhumis perceive the half-nirmanakayas.

Of course, also, bodhisattvas on the lower bhumis may not necessarily know they are on the bhumis, as there is a sort of forgetting that occurs with birth.

Longchenpa says,

"The "two aspects" are the sambhogakaya of pure space seen on the level of buddhahood, and the reflected sambhogakaya seen by the bodhisattvas. ...

The genuine field of sambhogakaya, by the perfection of being without good and bad, is always changeless. The reflected sambhogakaya appearing to the bodhisattvas, showing the major and minor marks and so forth, appears to be other than the field and retinue and so forth. Therefore it is included within the appearances of the ten bhumis, and is called a "half-emanated sambhogakaya." This is taught in the tantra, the Wedding of the Sun and Moon (nyi zla kha sbyor) and so forth.

It is also called half-emanation because the field does not appear to be other for the bodhisattvas of the ten bhumis. Though sambhogakaya appears, since really it is not other than self-appearance, its reflection is a half-appearing simulacrum, and so it is called “half-emanation.” By emanating with the nature of self-appearance, it is also called a “naturally-existing nirmanakaya.”"

[Malcolm]

Thanks Seeker. This is interesting.

Many people can access, not totally, but partially, or some glimpse, to the sambogakaya.

Sure, if they are 8th stage bodhisayttvas on up. Otherwise, it is impossible because the afflictive obscuration prevents it.

[Toenail]

Thanks Seeker. This is interesting.

Many people can access, not totally, but partially, or some glimpse, to the sambogakaya.

Sure, if they are 8th stage bodhisayttvas on up. Otherwise, it is impossible because the afflictive obscuration prevents it.

If one receives teachings in a dream from the Buddhas or deities... How is it classified? If it is not a provocation but genuine. Would that be 'perceiving the sambhogakaya'?

[Malcolm]

Thanks Seeker. This is interesting.

Many people can access, not totally, but partially, or some glimpse, to the sambogakaya.

Sure, if they are 8th stage bodhisayttvas on up. Otherwise, it is impossible because the afflictive obscuration prevents it.

If one receives teachings in a dream from the Buddhas or deities... How is it classified? If it is not a provocation but genuine. Would that be 'perceiving the sambhogakaya'?

No. The sambhogakāya is not something any being who has afflictive obscurations can perceive at all, whether awake or in a dream. If one has afflictive obscurations, one can perceive only a nirmāṇakāya. This is not something open to interpretation or one's feelings. This is just how these things are defined.

[conebeckham]

Have any of you who doubt that an empowerment can be given via a recording tried to receive it that way? Because if not, where do you base your opinion on?

I have personally viewed videos of recorded empowerments. IMO they do not compare to a live empowerment in any way, and that includes streamed empowerments and transmissions.

[conebeckham]

n

To make it clearer... They put devotion and Mahamudra over tantric empowerment practice... This might be ideosyncratic to them. I'm pretty sure it is. I agree one needs in person. But there's a caveat to that.

Nyingma lamas like Khenchen Namdrol are not the personal time kind of lama. He gives these very extensive transmissions, doesn't even get much into Q&A or personal interviews and one is expected to have to tools to go do the job. Many of these high lamas there are buried in entourage and one on one time is rare. At least that's been my experience.

What's important is empowerment of one degree or another, transmission of a method, instructions on the sadhana and time to complete the recommended steps until the signs appear. People who do this are like 1% or less of people getting into Vajrayana. I don't know you that well, but we met and I learned something about your history and practice and my lama also said you've got a special practice. You were fortunate enough to get into high level Mahamudra with a very unique and special lineage, have immersion into the way of life. So replicating what you have is a tall order.

I have a little experience with recorded empowerments, because I wanted to experiment if I will have similar visions and experiences that always were so unusual and fascinating during live and in person empowerments. I did that with Garchen Rinpoche and with a Geluk Guhyasamaja and I forget the lama now. But I still experienced those signs in dreams that only I ever had during empowerments. Could be it was my karmaphala, faith, devotion, strong enthusiasm I don't know. But I am sure if Garchen Rinpoche says recorded empowerments are A-OK, then at least with him one should trust it's validity and ignore all these naysayers here whose own lamas.comtradict GR.

He has sadhanas and one can get into stuff very sincerely and go see him or contact Ina if one wants to get in contact. There's Drubpon Rinchen Dorje there who is really amazing, khenpos and all the good stuff.. Definitely when one is enthusiastic one will want to do those things. If one does not want to do those things one is not enthusiastic and one will get a little blessing or education from a recording.

Speaking personally, I have also taken empowerment from KhenChen Namdrol. I don't disagree with your statements about experience, etc., though I think he and his "entourage" do their very best to help serious students with all a person would need to engage in practice.We're talking extensive, soup-to-nuts practice here, not merely some daily sadhana and mantra recitation.

As for "replicating what I have," everyone's karma is different, but my point is that one has to make effort and understand commitment and transmission. We have to start where we are, but someone who seriously wants to engage in Vajrayana practice has to seek out a qualified guru and do what they can to create a relationship with that teacher. I just don't see that happening for people who confine themselves to internet transmission, in general, though there may be exceptions and I can't know every individual's situation, etc. I have watched empowerment recordings/videos, attended live-streamed Dharma Transmission, and taken live "meatspace" teachings in environments where there were thousands of disciples, some watching live via Screens/CCTV, down to small groups of people over the course of weeks, to one-on-one teaching and transmission with my gurus. From my POV, there is Tendrel in live situations, whether streamed or in person, that just cannot be replicated by a recording. If someone's only experience with transmission is via recorded empowerment, and one is committed to practice as a result of that empowerment, I think that is great thing, and there may be some blessing there, but I would urge anyone in that situation to make the effort to attend an empowerment in person and compare their experiences. I have a friend, for instance, who practices a ngondro based entirely on teachings gained via recordings, with a couple live seminar exceptions, and that person is sincere and committed to that ngondro. Much can be taught virtually, and I don't want to disparage On Line teaching--I also think there are opportunities to learn that way, in the same way that books and translations of "Tri" manuals can be extremely beneficial for one's practice. But empowerments are a different thing altogether.

[Natan]

n

To make it clearer... They put devotion and Mahamudra over tantric empowerment practice... This might be ideosyncratic to them. I'm pretty sure it is. I agree one needs in person. But there's a caveat to that.

Nyingma lamas like Khenchen Namdrol are not the personal time kind of lama. He gives these very extensive transmissions, doesn't even get much into Q&A or personal interviews and one is expected to have to tools to go do the job. Many of these high lamas there are buried in entourage and one on one time is rare. At least that's been my experience.

What's important is empowerment of one degree or another, transmission of a method, instructions on the sadhana and time to complete the recommended steps until the signs appear. People who do this are like 1% or less of people getting into Vajrayana. I don't know you that well, but we met and I learned something about your history and practice and my lama also said you've got a special practice. You were fortunate enough to get into high level Mahamudra with a very unique and special lineage, have immersion into the way of life. So replicating what you have is a tall order.

I have a little experience with recorded empowerments, because I wanted to experiment if I will have similar visions and experiences that always were so unusual and fascinating during live and in person empowerments. I did that with Garchen Rinpoche and with a Geluk Guhyasamaja and I forget the lama now. But I still experienced those signs in dreams that only I ever had during empowerments. Could be it was my karmaphala, faith, devotion, strong enthusiasm I don't know. But I am sure if Garchen Rinpoche says recorded empowerments are A-OK, then at least with him one should trust it's validity and ignore all these naysayers here whose own lamas.comtradict GR.

He has sadhanas and one can get into stuff very sincerely and go see him or contact Ina if one wants to get in contact. There's Drubpon Rinchen Dorje there who is really amazing, khenpos and all the good stuff.. Definitely when one is enthusiastic one will want to do those things. If one does not want to do those things one is not enthusiastic and one will get a little blessing or education from a recording.

Speaking personally, I have also taken empowerment from KhenChen Namdrol. I don't disagree with your statements about experience, etc., though I think he and his "entourage" do their very best to help serious students with all a person would need to engage in practice.We're talking extensive, soup-to-nuts practice here, not merely some daily sadhana and mantra recitation.

As for "replicating what I have," everyone's karma is different, but my point is that one has to make effort and understand commitment and transmission. We have to start where we are, but someone who seriously wants to engage in Vajrayana practice has to seek out a qualified guru and do what they can to create a relationship with that teacher. I just don't see that happening for people who confine themselves to internet transmission, in general, though there may be exceptions and I can't know every individual's situation, etc. I have watched empowerment recordings/videos, attended live-streamed Dharma Transmission, and taken live "meatspace" teachings in environments where there were thousands of disciples, some watching live via Screens/CCTV, down to small groups of people over the course of weeks, to one-on-one teaching and transmission with my gurus. From my POV, there is Tendrel in live situations, whether streamed or in person, that just cannot be replicated by a recording. If someone's only experience with transmission is via recorded empowerment, and one is committed to practice as a result of that empowerment, I think that is great thing, and there may be some blessing there, but I would urge anyone in that situation to make the effort to attend an empowerment in person and compare their experiences. I have a friend, for instance, who practices a ngondro based entirely on teachings gained via recordings, with a couple live seminar exceptions, and that person is sincere and committed to that ngondro. Much can be taught virtually, and I don't want to disparage On Line teaching--I also think there are opportunities to learn that way, in the same way that books and translations of "Tri" manuals can be extremely beneficial for one's practice. But empowerments are a different thing altogether.

It's like we drink the same tap water.


Now remember... For example the legendary Jigmed Lingpa... He was a poor sorry SOB and just prayed his ass off to Longchenpa. Then he got everything. But wait there's more.... Dudjom Lingpa sorry sad SoB same problem. Got it all from "visions." Very legendary, very in the books. We don't have to ask about Tilopa who said, I habe no worldly guru... My guru is Vajradhara.

But wait... Is there a modern example? One that some and many of us knew? Like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa who had no means to enter the party but stayed just outside and prayed a lot?

Of course I don't shade the value of in person qualified everything.

But... Faith, enthusiastic interest and sincerity count for so much more.

Are the Buddhas compassionate or criteria nerds? There are no scare quotes here. Full monty nudity.

But if the idea is, ok, my internet thingy is all that I need, that's naive. Any, as you say, confining notion is confinement not expansive openness.

By the way? We had lunch at Drubpon Gonpo Dorje's house. And do you must remember Ani Taoroung his close confidante? She passed this year January from cancer but spent 8 days in Thukdam and many auspicious signs. I only mentioned this because we had the identical training so my confidence is a bit bolder now.

[tobes]

I have done enough of both to feel personally settled on the question, but I would not extend this position beyond my own subjective horizons.

What has taken stock, matured and ripened in my mindstream has depended far more on my own intent, karma and connection to the guru than then the medium.