Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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T@sh!
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by T@sh! »

Are Garchen Rinpoche's empowerment only valid if taken live? I know there are differing opinions on this and that generally most Lamas say an empowerment has to be attended live in order for it to be received, but Garchen Rinpoche seems extremely liberal in comparison to Lama Zopa Rinpoche, for comparison sake. I absolutely love both Lama Zopa and Garchen Rinpoche, so I'm not disparaging, I'd just like to know what some of your perspectives are about GR empowerments live vs pre-recorded.

Tashi delek :anjali:
amanitamusc
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by amanitamusc »

If you make use of the search engine you can find plenty of info and opinions,
Soma999
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Soma999 »

Garchen Rinpoche is extremly clear you can take empowerment from him via a recorder video, lung also. This is his view. I trust him and his realisations, and feel he knows what he is doing.

Now other lamas have different views on the subject. I trust Garchen Rinpoche and his experience.
Soma999
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Soma999 »

When you see the lama in video, when he appears in dreams, visions… you see his sambogakaya form which is not bound by space and time. This form can transmits initiation, advise and all kinds of transmission.
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ThreeVows
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Soma999 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:04 pm his sambogakaya form which is not bound by space and time. This form can transmits initiation, advise and all kinds of transmission.
I think Garchen Rinpoche has basically explicitly put it this way, of note.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Tata1
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Tata1 »

Soma999 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:04 pm When you see the lama in video, when he appears in dreams, visions… you see his sambogakaya form which is not bound by space and time. This form can transmits initiation, advise and all kinds of transmission.
I thought only 8 level boddhisattva can see the sambhogakaya
Miorita
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Miorita »

Happy Veterans Day to Rinpoche!
With gratitude from Chicago,
former student of ChNN
Soma999
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Soma999 »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:52 pm
Soma999 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:04 pm When you see the lama in video, when he appears in dreams, visions… you see his sambogakaya form which is not bound by space and time. This form can transmits initiation, advise and all kinds of transmission.
I thought only 8 level boddhisattva can see the sambhogakaya
There are different kind of visions and perceptions. We can all have some access to the sambogakaya. I know quiet many people who does to a level or another. You can too. All those abilities belong to human potential.
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Lingpupa
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Lingpupa »

There will never be full agreement here. The view of my own teacher, which chimes with my gut feeling, is 1) recorded lung - maybe, in a pinch, until you can do better, provided the giver has specifically intended it for you 2) online lung, OK, provided the giver can see the recipients and vice versa 3) online live empowerment - not really, except for a bit of a blessing 4) recorded empowerment - no, just no.
Personally, a recorded empowerment would be (ahem) like pleasuring yourself to a recorded video of a porn star doing the business then saying you had sex wit her. (Or him, of course.)
Others will of course disagree.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Kai lord
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Kai lord »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:52 pm I thought only 8 level boddhisattva can see the sambhogakaya
It all depends on how well you practice dream yoga.....
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Tata1
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Tata1 »

Lingpupa wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:07 pm There will never be full agreement here. The view of my own teacher, which chimes with my gut feeling, is 1) recorded lung - maybe, in a pinch, until you can do better, provided the giver has specifically intended it for you 2) online lung, OK, provided the giver can see the recipients and vice versa 3) online live empowerment - not really, except for a bit of a blessing 4) recorded empowerment - no, just no.
Personally, a recorded empowerment would be (ahem) like pleasuring yourself to a recorded video of a porn star doing the business then saying you had sex wit her. (Or him, of course.)
Others will of course disagree.
Concerning number 2. You do realise that when you receive, lets say longchen nyintik from sechen rabjam in person and there are 3000 persons more than half don't see the teacher and vice versa?
Terma
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Terma »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:15 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:07 pm There will never be full agreement here. The view of my own teacher, which chimes with my gut feeling, is 1) recorded lung - maybe, in a pinch, until you can do better, provided the giver has specifically intended it for you 2) online lung, OK, provided the giver can see the recipients and vice versa 3) online live empowerment - not really, except for a bit of a blessing 4) recorded empowerment - no, just no.
Personally, a recorded empowerment would be (ahem) like pleasuring yourself to a recorded video of a porn star doing the business then saying you had sex wit her. (Or him, of course.)
Others will of course disagree.
Concerning number 2. You do realise that when you receive, lets say longchen nyintik from sechen rabjam in person and there are 3000 persons more than half don't see the teacher and vice versa?
I've also had qualms with this sort of thing. An example from a few years ago, Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi was giving an empowerment in my city. For those wanting to attend last minute, they were told that the shrine room was at full capacity but they would have a viewing room with a large screen so the participants could still take part. Even though they were in person, they were not in view of the presiding master. Other than the much closer physical proximity I don't see a big difference between this scenario and a normal webcast.

And personally, instead of being near the back of a very large crown in person and viewing the Lama as a tiny speck, in my own experience having a "front row seat" with perfect sound through a Webcast was much easier for me personally as well as preferable.
stoneinfocus
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by stoneinfocus »

Terma wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:47 pm
Tata1 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:15 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:07 pm There will never be full agreement here. The view of my own teacher, which chimes with my gut feeling, is 1) recorded lung - maybe, in a pinch, until you can do better, provided the giver has specifically intended it for you 2) online lung, OK, provided the giver can see the recipients and vice versa 3) online live empowerment - not really, except for a bit of a blessing 4) recorded empowerment - no, just no.
Personally, a recorded empowerment would be (ahem) like pleasuring yourself to a recorded video of a porn star doing the business then saying you had sex wit her. (Or him, of course.)
Others will of course disagree.
Concerning number 2. You do realise that when you receive, lets say longchen nyintik from sechen rabjam in person and there are 3000 persons more than half don't see the teacher and vice versa?
I've also had qualms with this sort of thing. An example from a few years ago, Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi was giving an empowerment in my city. For those wanting to attend last minute, they were told that the shrine room was at full capacity but they would have a viewing room with a large screen so the participants could still take part. Even though they were in person, they were not in view of the presiding master. Other than the much closer physical proximity I don't see a big difference between this scenario and a normal webcast.

And personally, instead of being near the back of a very large crown in person and viewing the Lama as a tiny speck, in my own experience having a "front row seat" with perfect sound through a Webcast was much easier for me personally as well as preferable.
With in person empowerments, even if they are not within view of the lama, they can usually still get the empowerment substances at the end. So this is one difference. But otherwise, I agree, it's not much different than a webcast.
T@sh!
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by T@sh! »

Thank you all for your input! I appreciate it :anjali:
T@sh!
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by T@sh! »

From what I've managed to learn since posting this originally is that empowerments and lungs can only be received live, not from recordings. The mandala needs to be opened and remain open for the empowerment to be given and received. I might be wrong.
escargotmycargo
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by escargotmycargo »

That doesn't seem to be Garchen Rinpoche's view. Eg. to participate in the Vajrakilaya Drupchen, they let you take the empowerment through recorded empowerment, etc.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

Soma999 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:43 pm Garchen Rinpoche is extremly clear you can take empowerment from him via a recorder video, lung also. This is his view. I trust him and his realisations, and feel he knows what he is doing.

Now other lamas have different views on the subject. I trust Garchen Rinpoche and his experience.
wow! that's amazing!
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:15 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:07 pm There will never be full agreement here. The view of my own teacher, which chimes with my gut feeling, is 1) recorded lung - maybe, in a pinch, until you can do better, provided the giver has specifically intended it for you 2) online lung, OK, provided the giver can see the recipients and vice versa 3) online live empowerment - not really, except for a bit of a blessing 4) recorded empowerment - no, just no.
Personally, a recorded empowerment would be (ahem) like pleasuring yourself to a recorded video of a porn star doing the business then saying you had sex wit her. (Or him, of course.)
Others will of course disagree.
Concerning number 2. You do realise that when you receive, lets say longchen nyintik from sechen rabjam in person and there are 3000 persons more than half don't see the teacher and vice versa?
Before commenting, I must state that I completely trust Garchen Rinpoche, who is one of the teachers I hold in the highest possible regard. (This sounds dry. The truth is, I revere him.)

By now I have received dozens of wangs offline (including wangs from HEGR). I have also received dozens of them online live (mostly from HEGR and ChNN), and I have tried twice to receive them from a recording, from HEGR, on HEGR's advice.

When HEGR, HHDL or ChNN insist that one can receive a wang (or, in ChNN’s case, a donwang) online, or even, in HEGR’s case, that one can receive it from a recording, I can only assume they are right. I must trust them here.

And yet I know that for me no online event is ever even close to being there in person, in flesh and blood, even if one is fifty metres away from the teacher, even if one sees next to nothing, even if the samaya substances are served by the teacher’s assistants, even if the translation is flawed or barely audible, etc. For me, nothing could be clearer. The physicality matters, absolutely – as does the effort of sorting out one’s everyday life to get there, getting there, being there, etc. I am utterly unconvinced in this respect by any rationalisations (such as mustering the help of contemporary physics). I know what I feel.

By the way, HEGR does not exactly say that one can receive a wang from a recording. What he says is this: The best way to receive a wang is to be there, in person. If this is impossible, if one has devotion one can receive it live, online. If this is impossible as well, if one has devotion one can also receive it from a recording. The hierarchy is there, and it is obvious.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
etamiyi
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by etamiyi »

T@sh! wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:28 pm Are Garchen Rinpoche's empowerment only valid if taken live? I know there are differing opinions on this and that generally most Lamas say an empowerment has to be attended live in order for it to be received, but Garchen Rinpoche seems extremely liberal in comparison to Lama Zopa Rinpoche, for comparison sake. I absolutely love both Lama Zopa and Garchen Rinpoche, so I'm not disparaging, I'd just like to know what some of your perspectives are about GR empowerments live vs pre-recorded.

Tashi delek :anjali:
Certain empowerments are valid taken from recorded videos IF H.E. instructs that it's valid to take it AND you meet all the conditions listed by Rinpoche (taken formal refuge (e.g. from afar), bodhisattva vows, tried your best to study tantric vows, etc.). If you are unsure please contact GBI for more details.
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heart
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by heart »

etamiyi wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:10 pm
T@sh! wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:28 pm Are Garchen Rinpoche's empowerment only valid if taken live? I know there are differing opinions on this and that generally most Lamas say an empowerment has to be attended live in order for it to be received, but Garchen Rinpoche seems extremely liberal in comparison to Lama Zopa Rinpoche, for comparison sake. I absolutely love both Lama Zopa and Garchen Rinpoche, so I'm not disparaging, I'd just like to know what some of your perspectives are about GR empowerments live vs pre-recorded.

Tashi delek :anjali:
Certain empowerments are valid taken from recorded videos IF H.E. instructs that it's valid to take it AND you meet all the conditions listed by Rinpoche (taken formal refuge (e.g. from afar), bodhisattva vows, tried your best to study tantric vows, etc.). If you are unsure please contact GBI for more details.
Suddenly there are "conditions"? Seriously?

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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