Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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Soma999
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Soma999 »

Indeed. And also let’s not forget the guru is a principle and is also inside. The guru is inside also.

From my experience, without outer guru, i would be in complete darkness.

Still, i have seen cases where some people received powerful transmission without even asking for it to happen, without a physical guru present, and it changed their life. Maybe it was a guru in another plane. I don’t know. Still it happened.

Life is a mystery.
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ThreeVows
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Soma999 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:15 pm From my experience, without outer guru, i would be in complete darkness.

Still, i have seen cases where some people received powerful transmission without even asking for it to happen, without a physical guru present, and it changed their life. Maybe it was a guru in another plane. I don’t know. Still it happened.

Life is a mystery.
Homage to all manifestations of the Guru /\

A prayer, if anyone is interested, that I feel is immensely well said: https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... -blessings
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Pietrepa
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Pietrepa »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:33 pm
According to Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in this life. Mind (sems) and pristine consciousness (ye shes) can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of the moment of death. The pure and impure elements can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā. Samsara and nirvana can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in one of the natural nirmāṇakāya buddhafields. Vimalamitra writes about this with clarity and detail in the commentary on the Blazing Lamp Tantra.
Weird. I thought that each of these realizations meant that the previous ones took place. That is, someone who has realized the separation of alaya from dharmakaya has realized all the subsequent separations mentioned in your statement during his lifetime?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:08 pm
Soma999 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:31 pm Is it possible to receive empowerments in other forms. Of course. Can we delude oneself and imagine all kind of things ? True also. Does that mean we should not try to come in contact with masters ? Not at all. We should come in contact with true masters
Indeed, I did not mean to imply otherwise, in general.

In general, the main reason for expressing the perspective that I have expressed is basically twofold - first, it doesn't get expressed very often it seems, and second, and more importantly perhaps, I think there are many people who - without knowing it - basically denigrate noble sangha because said noble sangha do not have the obvious 'credentials' that they think are necessary.
This is basically nonsense, just something you made up.

Your citation about variegated nirmaṇākāyas does not mean you can receive an empowerment from a nirmaṇakāya bridge, rock, tree, etc.

Continuing to repeat your statement about "mind and wisdom mind" is just a mantra you have charmed yourself with.

If you have no outer guru (ripening empowerment and liberating instructions), you wont have an inner guru (your practice), so you can realize the secret guru (wisdom).

Claiming that people are slandering the noble sangha because they don't agree with your bizarre and incorrect interpretations is frankly silly and childish.

Encouraging people to think they can receive empowerments from magical rocks and trees is downright irresponsible.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Pietrepa wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:33 pm
According to Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in this life. Mind (sems) and pristine consciousness (ye shes) can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of the moment of death. The pure and impure elements can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā. Samsara and nirvana can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in one of the natural nirmāṇakāya buddhafields. Vimalamitra writes about this with clarity and detail in the commentary on the Blazing Lamp Tantra.
Weird. I thought that each of these realizations meant that the previous ones took place. That is, someone who has realized the separation of alaya from dharmakaya has realized all the subsequent separations mentioned in your statement during his lifetime?
These differentiations are what cause liberation in these four bardos.
Toenail
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Toenail »

I just want to say that I listened to a lot of very realized teachers and studied some texts and understood maybe half of it and it all supports Malcolm's arguments. It is again and again stated that you need a human master in all texts I know. I know tibetan and can read root texts. Also all masters say this. This is not a controversial point at all in tibetan Buddhism. Human master means alive and present in space and time.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

Toenail wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:34 pm I just want to say that I listened to a lot of very realized teachers and studied some texts and understood maybe half of it and it all supports Malcolm's arguments. It is again and again stated that you need a human master in all texts I know. I know tibetan and can read root texts. Also all masters say this. This is not a controversial point at all in tibetan Buddhism. Human master means alive and present in space and time.
But.. but... but... rocks!

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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Natan »

Then we should throw Jigmed Lingpa, Dudjom Lingpa and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa in the garbage right?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by stoneinfocus »

Natan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:16 pm Then we should throw Jigmed Lingpa, Dudjom Lingpa and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa in the garbage right?
All of these tertons had human lamas. Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't, but he mentions his human lamas multiple times in his own autobiography. And KDL was a student of Dudjom Rinpoche, so not sure where that's coming from...
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

stoneinfocus wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:46 pm Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't,
Alan Wallace is chiefly responsible for this misapprehension and he repeats it to his students over and over again.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Natan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:16 pm Then we should throw Jigmed Lingpa, Dudjom Lingpa and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa in the garbage right?
As quoted by Dudjom Rinpoche in his big red book,
It is said that owing to the power of such aspirations, and also because bodhisattvas have no reason to be destitute of the doctrine, they continually hear the sound of the doctrine, even in the sounds of the elements and wild animals. Buddhas and bodhisattvas indeed reveal themselves in visions and teach the doctrine, as it says in the 'Sutra of Contemplation which Subsumes all Merits:

"O Vimalatejas! the great bodhisattvas who are desirous of the doctrine and who are endowed with perfect aspiration and reverence, will behold the visage of the Transcendent Lord Buddha and hear his doctrine even though they reside in another region of the universe"

...it is said that the treasure troves of the doctrine pour forth from the spatial expanse of the intention of all sublime individuals.

The following passage also occurs in the 'Sutra which Genuinely Comprises the Entire Doctrine:

"To the bodhisattvas whose aspiration is pure all appropriate instructions and teachings come forth just as he wishes."

And again, there is a sutra which says,

"If you have the confidence of certainty with respect to ultimate meaning,
One hundred thousand doctrinal treasures will pour forth from your mind."
Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, according to Longchenpa, Bodhisattvas on the 10 Bhumis can/will perceive the half-nirmanakayas. It's not just on the pure bhumis, this is specified as on the 10 Bhumis.

On the lower bhumis, again, initially a Bodhisattva may forget due to birth and the remaining obscurations, but even so they may awaken to their inheritance even in the absence of a human teacher.

FWIW.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:54 pm
As quoted by Dudjom Rinpoche in his big red book,
[/quote]

This does not mean that you have the fortune to hear Vajrayāna or Dzogchen teachings as a bodhisattva on the stages.

Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, according to Longchenpa, Bodhisattvas on the 10 Bhumis can/will perceive the half-nirmanakayas. It's not just on the pure bhumis, this is specified as on the 10 Bhumis.
Which again you've failed to read correctly or carefully, as Longchenpa states in the Great Chariot
The pure bodhisattvas also are made to attain the five kayas and five wisdoms. Depending on their having purified the five kleshas, the teachers of the five families, the fields, the Dharma, and the retinue and so forth appear to them :
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 13072.html

You also have not understood the meaning pf half-kāya.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Natan »

stoneinfocus wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:46 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:16 pm Then we should throw Jigmed Lingpa, Dudjom Lingpa and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa in the garbage right?
All of these tertons had human lamas. Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't, but he mentions his human lamas multiple times in his own autobiography. And KDL was a student of Dudjom Rinpoche, so not sure where that's coming from...
The first Dudjom from 150 years ago. Are you sure? And Jigmed Lingpa? Had no human guru. KDL told the story from his lips. Ok? He met human gurus later. But initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche no one else. Period. Punto over. Complete
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:24 pm Which again you've failed to read correctly or carefully, as Longchenpa states in the Great Chariot
The genuine field of sambhogakaya, by the perfection of being without good and bad, is always changeless. The reflected sambhogakaya appearing to the bodhisattvas, showing the major and minor marks and so forth, appears to be other than the field and retinue and so forth. Therefore it is included within the appearances of the ten bhumis, and is called a "half-emanated sambhogakaya." This is taught in the tantra, the Wedding of the Sun and Moon (nyi zla kha sbyor) and so forth.

It is also called half-emanation because the field does not appear to be other for the bodhisattvas of the ten bhumis. Though sambhogakaya appears, since really it is not other than self-appearance, its reflection is a half-appearing simulacrum, and so it is called “half-emanation.” By emanating with the nature of self-appearance, it is also called a “naturally-existing nirmanakaya.”
Generally this is possible due to authentic realization of emptiness.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:37 pm Generally this is possible due to authentic realization of emptiness.
Seeker, you are a very nice person, but I feel you are making a mistake here. The tantras are clear that a human teacher is needed to practice Vajrayana. Do you understand that your position is not supported? Or do you just not care?


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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Kai lord »

Toenail wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:34 pm This is not a controversial point at all in tibetan Buddhism. Human master means alive and present in space and time.
Yeah not controversial at all as most of us, mortals, can't even perceive pretas, devas, asuras, etc, directly. Much a less Bodhisattvas like in Asanga/Maitreya case.
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Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:26 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:46 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:16 pm Then we should throw Jigmed Lingpa, Dudjom Lingpa and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa in the garbage right?
All of these tertons had human lamas. Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't, but he mentions his human lamas multiple times in his own autobiography. And KDL was a student of Dudjom Rinpoche, so not sure where that's coming from...
The first Dudjom from 150 years ago. Are you sure? And Jigmed Lingpa? Had no human guru. KDL told the story from his lips. Ok? He met human gurus later. But initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche no one else. Period. Punto over. Complete
Jigme Lingpa had a human guru, of course:

https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies ... /TBRC_P314

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa was my master, with whom I spent a great deal of time. He never failed to place a picture of Dudjom Rinpoche on shrines at teachings. Orphaned at a very young age, he left the household where he was living because he wanted to practice the Dharma. And he went to central Tibet and found teachers who taught him. Frankly, I know his outer, inner, and secret bio better than anyone here.

The record is very clear in Dudjom Lingpa's own autobiography.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Virgo wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:19 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:37 pm Generally this is possible due to authentic realization of emptiness.
Seeker, you are a very nice person, but I feel you are making a mistake here. The tantras are clear that a human teacher is needed to practice Vajrayana. Do you understand that your position is not supported? Or do you just not care?

Virgo
Would you like to share a particular citation that can be discussed?

I have for instance cited Jigme Lingpa who has said exactly the opposite.

To be clear, which I am guessing is not entirely clear to some, I am not suggesting that most all of us somehow decide to forego connection with a valid human teacher. I myself have received numerous empowerments from numerous human teachers, and I have valued them immensely. I am not denigrating this manner of transmission in the slightest, nor downplaying its importance.

I am, however, saying that there can be manifestations of Bodhisattvas, basically, that manifest in such a way that they do not - in an ordinary sense, with mundane vision - have any clear connection whatsoever with some formal lineage holding human teacher, and yet they may nonetheless awaken their inheritance and receive transmission.

The reason this matters is because, in short, when we don't understand this, we are liable to denigrate realized Sangha and this has karmic repercussions. Furthermore, it inhibits certain karmic seeds from being planted that are in line with the Path.

If, however, the discussion does not apply to us at this point in time, the by all means we should certainly continue to pursue formal, ritual empowerments as is appropriate. Basically.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Virgo wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:19 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:37 pm Generally this is possible due to authentic realization of emptiness.
Seeker, you are a very nice person, but I feel you are making a mistake here. The tantras are clear that a human teacher is needed to practice Vajrayana. Do you understand that your position is not supported? Or do you just not care?

Virgo
One other point is that when one authentically realizes pointing out, this is basically the master empowerment, and it could be compared to light - if one realizes clear light, then inherent in the clear light are all potential colors. If one authentically realizes emptiness, then basically everything is sort of accessible there, and despite what Malcolm says, for instance in the text from Longchenpa it says,
At the time of the path of seeing, the ignorance of imputed false conceptions is transformed into the dharmadhatu wisdom. Attaining the first bhumi, "supremely joyful," we see Vairochana.
This discussion is not only about the pure bhumis.

Here, depending on the need, for instance one may receive empowerment from the wisdom body of Longchenpa. As Jigme Lingpa did.

So really the question is whether or not it is necessary to receive empowerment from a human teacher to realize the nature of mind. And the answer here is that it is not, not necessarily, if one is a manifestation of a Bodhisattva on the Bhumis.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:36 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:19 pm Seeker, you are a very nice person, but I feel you are making a mistake here. The tantras are clear that a human teacher is needed to practice Vajrayana. Do you understand that your position is not supported? Or do you just not care?

Virgo
Would you like to share a particular citation that can be discussed?
Yes, I would like you to to try to refute this earlier post point by point:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 07#p648407

You didn't refute it earlier. You claimed to have "engaged" Malcolm [for the last time], but in fact, you don't have appeared to have actually "engaged" him at all.

You seem to quote many things out of context and make many assumptions, but you do not always refute the counterpoints that are brought to you.

You have an interesting point of view, you just haven't supported it in any way that I can see.

Thank you,

Virgo
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