Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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PeterC
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by PeterC »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:31 pm You made an implicit assumption that people opted to not attend the in-person empowerment out of convenience. There are sometimes genuine barriers/obstacles to do so. I personally think there should be no excuse to not attend online empowerments regardless of the time (like 12am to 3am) and you have to work the following morning, if you are really serious about Dharma. Travelling around half the world is even less of a possibility if you do not have the means and/or have family obligations. We do not know the personal circumstances of everyone. So, this question becomes relevant.
Please do tell me what assumptions I've made.

Everyone who is serious about the Vajrayana, apart from the very fortunate, sooner or later has to make quite sacrifices or compromises to receive teachings that they need. It shouldn't need pointing out, given the number of hagiographies that hammer home this point, but these days unfortunately it does.

There are various possible explanations of HEGr's statements, the discussion on this thread only takes them at the very narrow apparent meaning. But show me the lama who says that you should not make all possible efforts to meet your teacher in person to receive empowerments and teaching if that is in any way possible.
Kai lord
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Kai lord »

ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:16 pm
Natan wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:15 am :focus:

This is about Garchen Rinpoche and Drikung Kagyu.........
Okok, I shall share Drupon Rinchen Rinpoche's account on his devotion for his root Guru, Garchen Rinpoche.

For those who are lazy to read all, here's a brief extract:
..........There was this time, when Drubwang Pachung Rinpoche (1901-1988), who is the lineage holder, (he is the lama on the far right side here [points behind him]), he was very old at that time and was not going to live for much longer. Garchen Rinpoche was traveling in Tibet to Pemako, in an area called Kongpo where he stayed. He was on his way to Pemako to meet his mother. From Nangchen, where Rinpoche came from, there are basically two roads, one that goes to Lhasa and one that doesn’t go there. The road to Lhasa was blocked and also there was a flooding, so there was not really a road and it was not permissible to travel on it. At that time, Rinpoche ran into some monks who told him about Pachung Rinpoche but actually there was not really anywhere to go because Drikung Thil, goes through Lhasa but Rinpoche was able to pass through the road in order to meet Pachung Rinpoche. He went there and at that time he was really close to death but he didn’t die then. In fact, he intended to die some years before, but HH Chungtsang Rinpoche had supplicated him to stay, so he stayed another three years.

Then Garchen Rinpoche came to see him (Pachung Rinpoche) at Drikung Thil monastery and told him that now is the time to transmit all the empowerments, instructions and transmissions of the Drikung Kagyu. Pachung Rinpoche who is the lineage holder had originally intended to transmit that whole Drikung lineage to HH Chetsang Rinpoche but wasn’t able to go to Tibet. Therefore, Chetsang Rinpoche assigned Garchen Rinpoche to be the lineage holder, the one who is in charge of the lineage’s teachings and gave him the entire lineage in the form of mind transference. It was basically transferred from within a state of Mahamudra. This is how Garchen Rinpoche met Pachung Rinpoche.”

After that Rinpoche left, and then soon later Pachung Rinpoche passed away [1988]. At that time, Garchen Rinpoche was in Lhasa and about to go back to Nangchen. He had already ordered the car and it was already there to pick him up and bring him back to Nangchen. However, as Rinpoche had passed away, HH Chungtsang Rinpoche had tried to contact Garchen Rinpoche to serve as the vajra master for the funeral ceremonies. So, he sent a few monks but in those days it was not easy to find somebody, there were no telephones. So they were looking for him and they asked around and in a shop and those monks said ‘yes we are Gar monastery monks’. Then they brought him to Garchen Rinpoche and actually his car was already there, but because HH asked him to be the vajra master to preside over those ceremonies, he cancelled the car in order to follow these instructions and did not go to Nangchen after all. So Garchen Rinpoche, went to the funeral services for Pachung Rinpoche where he acted as the vajra master.

The reason for mentioning all of that is because in the entire lineage that’s the reason why Garchen Rinpoche is considered to be so precious and important. He was the one who received and was entrusted with the entire lineage and all the empowerments and the instructions and so on. In any case, that was a time when I have not yet met him personally myself.”.........
HEGR has this lineage, if you follow this lineage, and consider him to be your Guru, his view about online empowerments is the only one you should care about. He says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
I very much prefer to see all my gurus in person, regardless where they are, more inspiring that way, can get close to them and feel the energy and if lucky, direct interaction. Old habits die hard I suppose.

Since you follow Garchen rinpoche so closely, I suppose I will be seeing you in the next 100 millions Mani/Ami retreat for world peace. Or will you be doing it via webcast?
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
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Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Natan
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Natan »

How did ChNN get his empowerment and from Changchub Dorje. Who remembers the story? ChNN went and pleaded with him for an empowerment and CD talked around it and gave some explanations. Finally when ChNN had enough of that game he demanded an empowerment and CD said he already gave him one in his dream. ChNN was still not satisfied and said that cannot be, because it was guru's dream not ChNN's and finally CD broke down and did some rudimentary empowerment just to shut him up. Folks over here act like they have some important knowledge, but it's bullshit

Garchen Rinpoche is widely regarded as realized. Anyone who meets is is always impressed. The compassionate love this man gives off is enormous. He says straight out you can get empowerments from his Sambhogakaya because he is nonstop in Mahamudra. He is giving empowerments 24/7 however you went to imagine that can be or cannot be won't change that praying to him gets the job done.

There is plenty of scripture to back up what is is about. He's not a procedure guru. He's an essence guru. What he accomplished while being tortured for 20 years in Chinese prison with his guru Khenpo Munsel is nothing short of awe inspiring. Those conditions will not be repeated again in our lives. Now recognize GR was into war and killing before. He took up arms. Practicing his guru's instructions whilst being beaten daily transformed him completely. He's not just some good man with nice intentions. He's a Buddha.

Not many people realize, although he never admits it and says he's not a scholar, GR has encyclopedic knowledge of Dharma. I am so thankful to have met him and spent time with him. And thankful to have this connection with Khenpo Munsel. I also connected to him through Lingtrul Rinpoche who gave the Guhyagarbha. Khenpo Munsel was also a totally realized Buddha who attained rainbow body.

These guys don't lie. The embody Vajrayana. Just looking at them is a vast instruction. These so called knowledgeable folks here are just playing grab ass with each other. A sambhogakaya doesn't even use words to teach just an image and or just the radiation of wisdom light. If master has that kaya power you will receive the teaching in ways you cannot imagine or explain.

GR can bless a recording because looking at him or hearing him brings him to your mind and he is always sending the blessing and teaching. If one does not have the experience of Mahamudra by calling him to mind it's just not s good enough karmic connection for you. But those with pure faith in him definitely have that experience. You don't need any ritual, but he gives wonderful rituals all the time
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:21 pm How did ChNN get his empowerment and from Changchub Dorje. Who remembers the story? ChNN went and pleaded with him for an empowerment and CD talked around it and gave some explanations. Finally when ChNN had enough of that game he demanded an empowerment and CD said he already gave him one in his dream. ChNN was still not satisfied and said that cannot be, because it was guru's dream not ChNN's and finally CD broke down and did some rudimentary empowerment just to shut him up.
ChNN was unaware of this and would have continued to be unaware of this had he not pestered Chanchub Dorje. Susequent to the Shitro empowerment he requested, Chanchub Dorje gave ChNN the legendary direct introduction that was life changing for him. So, you left out the crucial point of the story.

But in any case, a dream is live, not memorex. And ChNN explicitly rejected the idea that transmissions of any kind could be received from recordings many, many times.
Folks over here act like they have some important knowledge, but it's bullshit
Yes they do, and it is. Caveat emptor.
Soma999
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Soma999 »

This thread is not about ChNN view but thank you for sharing your opinion for those who care about it.
ZopaChotso
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ZopaChotso »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:39 am
ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:16 pm

Okok, I shall share Drupon Rinchen Rinpoche's account on his devotion for his root Guru, Garchen Rinpoche.

For those who are lazy to read all, here's a brief extract:

HEGR has this lineage, if you follow this lineage, and consider him to be your Guru, his view about online empowerments is the only one you should care about. He says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
I very much prefer to see all my gurus in person, regardless where they are, more inspiring that way, can get close to them and feel the energy and if lucky, direct interaction. Old habits die hard I suppose.

Since you follow Garchen rinpoche so closely, I suppose I will be seeing you in the next 100 millions Mani/Ami retreat for world peace. Or will you be doing it via webcast?
I wish I could be there in person! One day I'll be able to make it, but currently I can't financially afford it :/
The pandemic drained my bank account and I'm currently living with the generosity of a Dharma brother until my business takes off. That being said, I try to attend every live teaching Khenpo Samdup gives on the weekends, and next time he is at Gar Drolma I plan to make the drive to see him!
After the covid outbreak at the Vajrakilaya Drupchen, I believe GBI is closed atm. I also got a notification that HEGR's teachings on the paramita of patience has been delayed. I hope he isn't sick with this nasty virus.
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:31 pm This thread is not about ChNN view but thank you for sharing your opinion for those who care about it.
INdeed, I tried to move the conversation to another thread...this is not really about Garchen Rinpoche per se.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

it would be great if some student of GR makes the experiment.

getting the tape, hear, apply, see what happens. i'm tempted to do so haha but have almost no time.

i think at least establishes a powerful karmic connection.
true dharma is inexpressible.

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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Miorita »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:37 am it would be great if some student of GR makes the experiment.

getting the tape, hear, apply, see what happens. i'm tempted to do so haha but have almost no time.

i think at least establishes a powerful karmic connection.
It does. You should connect with him. Watch the video - whichever! And then try talking to the teacher!
He won't remember you, but you have an "empowerment" for your ease of mind until you meet him in person.
It's like you're in a waiting room. Do you think he'll be bothered by your watching the video?
He'll be happy after to give you what he has to give you. ;)
Just try! :P
jet.urgyen
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

Miorita wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:04 am
jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:37 am it would be great if some student of GR makes the experiment.

getting the tape, hear, apply, see what happens. i'm tempted to do so haha but have almost no time.

i think at least establishes a powerful karmic connection.
It does. You should connect with him. Watch the video - whichever! And then try talking to the teacher!
He won't remember you, but you have an "empowerment" for your ease of mind until you meet him in person.
It's like you're in a waiting room. Do you think he'll be bothered by your watching the video?
He'll be happy after to give you what he has to give you. ;)
Just try! :P
well, he's too old, and i can be sure it will be a pain in the ass trying to talk to him, too many people in the middle. but i like him and consider him to be a living Buddha, i have a prayer wheel because i saw him always spinning one haha, got inspired, u know.

yeah, ok, i'll do it.

i'll begin by 2023-january-06 until 2023-june-06, 3 to 4 hours/week of clean recitation of some of i don't have another source that could be producing the function, just to be sure, and we'll talk right here in this post, periodically. fool of me, huh? word.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Miorita
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Miorita »

Emaho!
Those who are complacent knowing they are Dzogchen and rely that they're PERFECTED at all times without having to aband-on their non-virtues, are not posessing bodhichitta. You/I don't hear of cultivating bodhichitta at Dzogchen. If you do, let me know how, please! Where is the cause for bodhichitta?
Thank you!
jet.urgyen
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

Miorita wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:25 pm Emaho!
Those who are complacent knowing they are Dzogchen and rely that they're PERFECTED at all times without having to aband-on their non-virtues, are not posessing bodhichitta. You/I don't hear of cultivating bodhichitta at Dzogchen. If you do, let me know how, please! Where is the cause for bodhichitta?
Thank you!
as i understand it, atiyoga, just like any vajrayana method, is meant for boddhisatvas with a certain understanding, not for everyone.

as far as i see, without boddhicitta, even dzogchen turns people into apatic ones. this is something i have discussed extensively in my local sangha, on the basis of the '-I hope my students are not- arrogant and without compassion' commentary that ChNN once did. but that is way off the present topic.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by pemachophel »

Anyen Rinpoche has a book titled either Dzogchen & Compassion or Dzogchen & Bodhicitta. This might be what you are looking for.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
jet.urgyen
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:09 pm
Miorita wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:25 pm Emaho!
Those who are complacent knowing they are Dzogchen and rely that they're PERFECTED at all times without having to aband-on their non-virtues, are not posessing bodhichitta. You/I don't hear of cultivating bodhichitta at Dzogchen. If you do, let me know how, please! Where is the cause for bodhichitta?
Thank you!
as i understand it, atiyoga, just like any vajrayana method, is meant for boddhisatvas with a certain understanding, not for everyone.

as far as i see, without boddhicitta, even dzogchen turns people into apatic ones. this is something i have discussed extensively in my local sangha, on the basis of the '-I hope my students are not- arrogant and without compassion' commentary that ChNN once did. but that is way off the present topic.
can someone share me some links? :smile:
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
jet.urgyen
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

Can anyone provide the sources?
I'm whiling to put it to test, but I'll need a hand on the sources since can't find any.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
stoneinfocus
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by stoneinfocus »

jet.urgyen wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:56 pm Can anyone provide the sources?
I'm whiling to put it to test, but I'll need a hand on the sources since can't find any.
Sources for what?
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kirtu
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by kirtu »

To some extent people have been talking past each other.

GR is a siddha.

Time after time he has specifically said that the actual empowerment is when people generate Bodhicitta. This is his actual main objective. His objective is not mind ripening per se in the sense of a HYT empowerment for that specific purpose. Those empowerments are also given but usually not in a recording or even online.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Virgo
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

kirtu wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:11 am To some extent people have been talking past each other.

GR is a siddha.

Time after time he has specifically said that the actual empowerment is when people generate Bodhicitta. This is his actual main objective. His objective is not mind ripening per se in the sense of a HYT empowerment for that specific purpose. Those empowerments are also given but usually not in a recording or even online.
This actually explains some of his actions. If he wrongly thinks that the generation of bodhicitta is a ripening empowerment then it is not too hard to see why he is not very concerned about the formalities around actual ripening empowerments. Those are not very important when you are already ripened by generating true relative bodhicitta. It goes without saying that his opinion is wrong. That is why the tantras are the highest authority, as we discussed previously.

In any event, this thread should have been split a long time ago.

Virgo
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kirtu
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by kirtu »

Virgo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:34 am
kirtu wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:11 am To some extent people have been talking past each other.

GR is a siddha.

Time after time he has specifically said that the actual empowerment is when people generate Bodhicitta. This is his actual main objective. His objective is not mind ripening per se in the sense of a HYT empowerment for that specific purpose. Those empowerments are also given but usually not in a recording or even online.
This actually explains some of his actions. If he wrongly thinks that the generation of bodhicitta is a ripening empowerment then it is not too hard to see why he is not very concerned about the formalities around actual ripening empowerments.
He doesn't think that.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Virgo
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

kirtu wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:45 am
Virgo wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:34 am
kirtu wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:11 am To some extent people have been talking past each other.

GR is a siddha.

Time after time he has specifically said that the actual empowerment is when people generate Bodhicitta. This is his actual main objective. His objective is not mind ripening per se in the sense of a HYT empowerment for that specific purpose. Those empowerments are also given but usually not in a recording or even online.
This actually explains some of his actions. If he wrongly thinks that the generation of bodhicitta is a ripening empowerment then it is not too hard to see why he is not very concerned about the formalities around actual ripening empowerments.
He doesn't think that.
Uhhh... you just explained that he does.

Virgo
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