Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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ThreeVows
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ThreeVows »

Virgo wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:10 am
Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:36 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:19 pm Seeker, you are a very nice person, but I feel you are making a mistake here. The tantras are clear that a human teacher is needed to practice Vajrayana. Do you understand that your position is not supported? Or do you just not care?

Virgo
Would you like to share a particular citation that can be discussed?
Yes, I would like you to to try to refute this earlier post point by point:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 07#p648407

You didn't refute it earlier. You claimed to have "engaged" Malcolm [for the last time], but in fact, you don't have appeared to have actually "engaged" him at all.

You seem to quote many things out of context and make many assumptions, but you do not always refute the counterpoints that are brought to you.

You have an interesting point of view, you just haven't supported it in any way that I can see.

Thank you,

Virgo
I'm not inclined to comment line by line on that one, to be honest, as it's kind of a mess and there are various misconceptions there which apparently are because Malcolm is not realized. Generally with authentic realization, indeed one can receive transmission from rocks or trees or whatever as essentially all form is realized to be indivisible from the body of Vairochana, to put it a certain way.

And the truth is I'm not necessarily interested in convincing anyone of anything. I am speaking here, basically, because ... well, the reason could be discussed on many levels, but basically because it emerges as the thing to do. I couldn't really care less, in some sense, if anyone believes me or not, but I do think that there is a reason to say what I've said here.

Best wishes. Unless there is more that should be said, I probably won't respond again here, to anyone. If there is some benefit to speaking more, perhaps. FWIW. Which may be nothing at all :D
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:43 pm

One other point is that when one authentically realizes pointing out, this is basically the master empowerment,
No, this is the fourth empowerment. The vajra master empowerment is part of the vase empowerment.

and it could be compared to light - if one realizes clear light, then inherent in the clear light are all potential colors. If one authentically realizes emptiness,
No, because the 'od gsal in sūtra, even if one argues it is the same as in Dzogchen, there are no methods taught in sūtra to work with it, because the notion of lhun grub and practices that work with lhun grub are missing in all of the nine yāna, let alone sūtra.

At the time of the path of seeing, the ignorance of imputed false conceptions is transformed into the dharmadhatu wisdom. Attaining the first bhumi, "supremely joyful," we see Vairochana.
This discussion is not only about the pure bhumis.
You have not grasped the essential point here, because you have not understood the text.

When it says these are self-appearances, this means these bodhisattvas are only perceiving simulacrum of the sambhogakāya, a reflection, which arises as a self-appearance out of their own minds. Only bodhisattvas on the pure bhumis can perceive the sambhogakāya directly, as the earlier passage from the same text which I provide above clearly states.
Here, depending on the need, for instance one may receive empowerment from the wisdom body of Longchenpa. As Jigme Lingpa did.
In the middle of his second three year retreat, after he had been practicing Vajrayāna for two decades.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Seeker12 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:15 am\
I'm not inclined to comment line by line on that one, to be honest, as it's kind of a mess
The only mess here is the febrile stew of your misquotes and misconceptions.
Generally with authentic realization, indeed one can receive transmission from rocks or trees or whatever as essentially all form is realized to be indivisible from the body of Vairochana, to put it a certain way.
I see, so first you have to be realized...and how do you get that way?

And if you are realized, what transmissions are you lacking?

Its amazing you cannot see the contradictions in your statements.

So to bring it back around, if you are realized, you can receive an empowerment from a recording of an empowerment? Is that it? But what if you are not realized? How does that work. Can some guru just hand you liberation through the power of their samādhi? You're talking nonsense and you know it.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

Seeker12 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:15 am
And the truth is I'm not necessarily interested in convincing anyone of anything. I am speaking here, basically, because ... well, the reason could be discussed on many levels, but basically because it emerges as the thing to do. I couldn't really care less, in some sense, if anyone believes me or not, but I do think that there is a reason to say what I've said here.

Best wishes. Unless there is more that should be said, I probably won't respond again here, to anyone. If there is some benefit to speaking more, perhaps. FWIW. Which may be nothing at all :D
Okay, well best wishes, Seeker.

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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Sādhaka »

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 96#p280296


It's kind of funny that I wasn't even searching on the topic-at-hand; yet somehow stumbled upon this^ post....
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by tobes »

The more general question seems to be: where is does the epistemic authority for Vajrayana - in general - lie?

If we say: what is written in the Tantras, then we are privileging text ahead of guru (i.e. what is said or transmitted symbolically). And then there is the question of interpretation, which is always tricky, but at a whole new level of trickiness for Tantras.

If we say: what the guru says, then we are privileging one person's perspective - awakened or not - ahead of a whole tradition.

Most of us probably say: we need these two together, alongside commentarial traditions etc.

But I think there is some necessary inconsistency in that. The Vajrayana is never going to be some linear, black and white contract.

To this degree, I don't like the idea of generating doubts in the minds of students of this or that particular guru.

In this case, genuine students of Garchen Rinpoche should follow what he says on this topic.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:39 am The more general question seems to be: where is does the epistemic authority for Vajrayana - in general - lie?

If we say: what is written in the Tantras, then we are privileging text ahead of guru…
We accept, axiomatically, that the tantras arise from an nonerroneous source. But it’s clear gurus can be in error. There is no tantra, anywhere, that asserts gurus are axiomatically faultless.

The point of the Dzogchen Tantras I cited make this point. There are many other tantras, both sarma and Nyingma that reinforce my points.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:09 am
tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:39 am The more general question seems to be: where is does the epistemic authority for Vajrayana - in general - lie?

If we say: what is written in the Tantras, then we are privileging text ahead of guru…
We accept, axiomatically, that the tantras arise from an nonerroneous source. But it’s clear gurus can be in error. There is no tantra, anywhere, that asserts gurus are axiomatically faultless.

The point of the Dzogchen Tantras I cited make this point. There are many other tantras, both sarma and Nyingma that reinforce my points.
Nevertheless, we don't read tantras like bible belt Christians read the bible; there are always going to be many interpretative layers. So how do we decide which interpretation is valid and which is not? Who has the epistemic authority for the correct interpretation and who does not? And what does it hinge on?

It's all very messy and inconsistent by it's very nature.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:03 am It's all very messy and inconsistent by it's very nature.
Humans are inconsistent and messy. The sūtras and tantras themselves, not at all, unless you think they are human compositions, in which case, there are no reliable authorities apart from one's personal opinions. It follows then, there is no validity at all to anyone's point of view about anything that has to do with Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma becomes Twitter, which sadly, here is often the case.

As far as epistemic authority goes, first the scriptures, then the Indian siddhas and paṇḍitas, etc.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:08 am
tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:03 am It's all very messy and inconsistent by it's very nature.
Humans are inconsistent and messy. The sūtras and tantras themselves, not at all, unless you think they are human compositions, in which case, there are no reliable authorities apart from one's personal opinions. It follows then, there is no validity at all to anyone's point of view about anything that has to do with Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma becomes Twitter, which sadly, here is often the case.

As far as epistemic authority goes, first the scriptures, then the Indian siddhas and paṇḍitas, etc.
I'm not suggesting we descend to some 'anything goes' subjective relativism.

But I think it is plainly the case with respect to sutras, that there is enormous inconsistency - and that is resolved to some degree by discerning provisional from ultimate meanings....and then we basically rely on logic to define the latter. But even then, so many Madhyamakas....so much disagreement!

As far as tantra goes, do you think we can justly situate Garchen Rinpoche outside the epistemic context of scriptures, mahasiddhas and panditas? That context is pretty darn pluralistic and diverse. There's room for a lot of different approaches, some which some find acceptable and others don't.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 am
Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:43 pm



This discussion is not only about the pure bhumis.
When it says these are self-appearances, this means these bodhisattvas are only perceiving simulacrum of the sambhogakāya, a reflection, which arises as a self-appearance out of their own minds. Only bodhisattvas on the pure bhumis can perceive the sambhogakāya directly, as the earlier passage from the same text which I provide above clearly states.
Are there even kayas or anything else which is not a self-appearance of one's mind? What does "perceiving the sambhogakaya directly" actually entail?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:33 pm According to Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in this life. Mind (sems) and pristine consciousness (ye shes) can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of the moment of death.
Sorry for a slight :offtopic: but shouldn't these two be swap?

At the time of death, our mental activities and consciousnesses are reduced to most basic state, alaya and highly practitioners are able to recognize objective clear light which is the manifestation of Dharmakaya and stay in that state of absorption for hours if not days.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:58 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:33 pm According to Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in this life. Mind (sems) and pristine consciousness (ye shes) can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of the moment of death.
Sorry for a slight :offtopic: but shouldn't these two be swap?

At the time of death, our mental activities and consciousnesses are reduced to most basic state, alaya and highly practitioners are able to recognize objective clear light which is the manifestation of Dharmakaya and stay in that state of absorption for hours if not days.
In Dzogchen lingo, the kun gzhi is the most subtle knowledge obscuration of ignorance. So same term, different meaning, different system.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:50 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:21 am
Seeker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:43 pm





When it says these are self-appearances, this means these bodhisattvas are only perceiving simulacrum of the sambhogakāya, a reflection, which arises as a self-appearance out of their own minds. Only bodhisattvas on the pure bhumis can perceive the sambhogakāya directly, as the earlier passage from the same text which I provide above clearly states.
Are there even kayas or anything else which is not a self-appearance of one's mind? What does "perceiving the sambhogakaya directly" actually entail?
Yes, outer objects are not a self appearance of the mind.

It means being able to be in the presence of the sambhogakaya directly; the sambhogakaya is a rupakaya.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:25 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:26 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:46 pm

All of these tertons had human lamas. Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't, but he mentions his human lamas multiple times in his own autobiography. And KDL was a student of Dudjom Rinpoche, so not sure where that's coming from...
The first Dudjom from 150 years ago. Are you sure? And Jigmed Lingpa? Had no human guru. KDL told the story from his lips. Ok? He met human gurus later. But initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche no one else. Period. Punto over. Complete
Jigme Lingpa had a human guru, of course:

https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies ... /TBRC_P314

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa was my master, with whom I spent a great deal of time. He never failed to place a picture of Dudjom Rinpoche on shrines at teachings. Orphaned at a very young age, he left the household where he was living because he wanted to practice the Dharma. And he went to central Tibet and found teachers who taught him. Frankly, I know his outer, inner, and secret bio better than anyone here.

The record is very clear in Dudjom Lingpa's own autobiography.
That's the story he told and the reason he told it was to say devotion is the best. But you know everything better than everyone because ChNN was your toot guru
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:42 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:08 am
tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:03 am It's all very messy and inconsistent by it's very nature.
Humans are inconsistent and messy. The sūtras and tantras themselves, not at all, unless you think they are human compositions, in which case, there are no reliable authorities apart from one's personal opinions. It follows then, there is no validity at all to anyone's point of view about anything that has to do with Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma becomes Twitter, which sadly, here is often the case.

As far as epistemic authority goes, first the scriptures, then the Indian siddhas and paṇḍitas, etc.
I'm not suggesting we descend to some 'anything goes' subjective relativism.

But I think it is plainly the case with respect to sutras, that there is enormous inconsistency - and that is resolved to some degree by discerning provisional from ultimate meanings....and then we basically rely on logic to define the latter. But even then, so many Madhyamakas....so much disagreement!

As far as tantra goes, do you think we can justly situate Garchen Rinpoche outside the epistemic context of scriptures, mahasiddhas and panditas? That context is pretty darn pluralistic and diverse. There's room for a lot of different approaches, some which some find acceptable and others don't.
Indian Madhyamikas differed only on pedagogy, not on view.

Indian Vajrayanists differed only on the relative importance of the two stages to one another, but not on the need for proper ripening through empowerments conducted correctly.

I don’t have much of an opinion about Garchen Rinpoche, per se, other than that he is a very nice person. He’s doing the best he can.

But for reasons already stated, recorded empowerments lack the ability to ripen anyone, and I am happy to disagree with anyone who claims the opposite. If someone wants to view one of these things and imagine they’ve actually received an empowerment or lung from a recording, all I can do is shake my head and explain why they are mistaken.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Pietrepa »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:25 pm Yes, outer objects are not a self appearance of the mind.
It means being able to be in the presence of the sambhogakaya directly; the sambhogakaya is a rupakaya.
Thus, bodhisattvas on pure bhumis can hang out with actual buddhas in their sambhogakaya form, while those on impure bhumis only have visions of their own potentiality similar to the famous visions of a certain too-often-discussed practice here on the forum that merely resembles the buddhas, i.e. visionary forms of buddhas, yabyums, etc.?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Natan wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:25 pm
Natan wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:26 pm

The first Dudjom from 150 years ago. Are you sure? And Jigmed Lingpa? Had no human guru. KDL told the story from his lips. Ok? He met human gurus later. But initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche no one else. Period. Punto over. Complete
Jigme Lingpa had a human guru, of course:

https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies ... /TBRC_P314

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa was my master, with whom I spent a great deal of time. He never failed to place a picture of Dudjom Rinpoche on shrines at teachings. Orphaned at a very young age, he left the household where he was living because he wanted to practice the Dharma. And he went to central Tibet and found teachers who taught him. Frankly, I know his outer, inner, and secret bio better than anyone here.

The record is very clear in Dudjom Lingpa's own autobiography.
That's the story he told and the reason he told it was to say devotion is the best. But you know everything better than everyone because ChNN was your toot guru
The story he told is in his autobiography. There is no denying that his devotion to Padmasambhava was absolute. But your claim that initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche simply false. He was considered an emanation of Guru Rinpoche because he asserted that his conception was a result of a red ball of light from the union of Guru Rinpoche and Yeshe Tsogyal that travelled from Zangdok Palri and entered his mother while his parents were in union.

You can read elements of his largely autobiographical account here:

https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:87c51 ... ork=Thesis

You won't find any accounts of him receiving empowerments from Guru Rinpoche. You will find an account of him searching everywhere high and low for a teacher, however.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Sādhaka »

Edit:

*not sure about discussing something like this*
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Pietrepa wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:25 pm Yes, outer objects are not a self appearance of the mind.
It means being able to be in the presence of the sambhogakaya directly; the sambhogakaya is a rupakaya.
Thus, bodhisattvas on pure bhumis can hang out with actual buddhas in their sambhogakaya form, while those on impure bhumis only have visions of their own potentiality similar to the famous visions of a certain too-often-discussed practice here on the forum that merely resembles the buddhas, i.e. visionary forms of buddhas, yabyums, etc.?
Correct.

The difference is that it takes common Mahāyāna bodhisattvas two incalculable eons to reach the pure bhumis. For example, bodhisattvas on the first bhumi can visit an hundred buddhafields, see one hundred nirmāṇakāyas and so on, but the amount of time they have to spend on the paths of accumulation, application, and cultivation is daunting.

For this reason, we have Vajrayāna for those of sharper capacity. Tripitikamala states:

Although the goal is the same, since it is unconfused,
with many methods, not difficult,
and mastered by those of sharp faculties,
Mantrayāna is superior.


As Dzogchen teachings is the pinnacle of secret mantra, buddhahood may take only a few years at most if one is especially diligent. If not, then it is certain to occur in the bardo or in the next life without entering samsara again.

But in general, the purpose of secret mantra is buddhahood in this life, so it does not matter much which approach one takes. However, if one is not properly ripened, then there is no hope and one's desire for liberation will not be met. If one attempts to practice the liberating instructions without the basis of the ripening empowerment from a qualified teacher given properly, one's effort will be no better than trying to get oil from grinding stones.
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