Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

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Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pmHe says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
Argument from authority: a formal fallacy in which it is argued that because a perceived authority figure (or figures) believes a proposition (relevant to their authority) to be true, that proposition must therefore be true. This is also known as an appeal to authority.

We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:15 pm
ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pmHe says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.
So happy to hear this :namaste:
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tobes
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by tobes »

Shaiksha wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:09 am
tobes wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:39 am The more general question seems to be: where is does the epistemic authority for Vajrayana - in general - lie?

If we say: what is written in the Tantras, then we are privileging text ahead of guru…
We accept, axiomatically, that the tantras arise from an nonerroneous source. But it’s clear gurus can be in error. There is no tantra, anywhere, that asserts gurus are axiomatically faultless.

The point of the Dzogchen Tantras I cited make this point. There are many other tantras, both sarma and Nyingma that reinforce my points.
In relation to this, tantras and other authoritative scriptures were revealed or written or composed during the time when it was just not possible to receive empowerments remotely as they did not have the technology. This issue was mute. So rather than reading into tantras and sutras about this issue, we should rely on the realization or wisdom mind of the living teacher/master to resolve this issue or decide for ourselves. Any comment or criticism of this view?

Anyway, they say that the proof is in the pudding. If this works, we should have students of Garchen Rinpoche who receives empowerments and put them into practice and achieve realizations. Unfortunately, GR is not my guru and I have never received any empowerments from him and could not comment. But, in theory, it is possible to prove the efficacy of the method. No?
There is a very bad assumption here that whilst gurus can be in error, scholars or other kinds of **interpreters** of tantric texts are somehow axiomatically faultless, and therefore, b overrides a.

The text may arise from a nonerronerous source. But the person who makes claims on its basis is not this source, and is therefore not axiomatically faultless.

The very best interpreters are also the very best gurus - the siddhas, panditas and contemporary masters - so I don't see how privileging the text gets us out of the problem.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

tobes wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:48 pm
There is a very bad assumption here that whilst gurus can be in error, scholars or other kinds of **interpreters** of tantric texts are somehow axiomatically faultless, and therefore, b overrides a.

The text may arise from a nonerronerous source. But the person who makes claims on its basis is not this source, and is therefore not axiomatically faultless.

The very best interpreters are also the very best gurus - the siddhas, panditas and contemporary masters - so I don't see how privileging the text gets us out of the problem.
Thank you for this. No escape from interpretation (and the challenges, and responsibilities, it entails).
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Montoya »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:15 pm
ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pmHe says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
Argument from authority: a formal fallacy in which it is argued that because a perceived authority figure (or figures) believes a proposition (relevant to their authority) to be true, that proposition must therefore be true. This is also known as an appeal to authority.

We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.
I don't find this to be particularly convincing. The whole premise of the fallacy is that saying "So and so says it's true, so it is" is not a very strong argument. However, throughout this thread you merely swap a human authority for a scriptural one. "Because the tantras say it is so, it is." I understand your point about falling into relativism if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that is also the whole notion behind the fallacy to begin with.
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tobes
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by tobes »

Montoya wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:15 pm
ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pmHe says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
Argument from authority: a formal fallacy in which it is argued that because a perceived authority figure (or figures) believes a proposition (relevant to their authority) to be true, that proposition must therefore be true. This is also known as an appeal to authority.

We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.
I don't find this to be particularly convincing. The whole premise of the fallacy is that saying "So and so says it's true, so it is" is not a very strong argument. However, throughout this thread you merely swap a human authority for a scriptural one. "Because the tantras say it is so, it is." I understand your point about falling into relativism if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that is also the whole notion behind the fallacy to begin with.
There is also the problem that there is no statement in any tantra about cyberspace. Therefore, any position that emerges must do so inferentially.

Does this make inferential logic the epistemic king of Vajrayana? The Vajrayana, principally grounded in reason? Seriously??

Personally, I think Malcolm's inferential position - on the liveliness of the mandala, jnanasattvas etc - is very compelling.

But so far we have not really heard much about Garchen's inferential position; there seems to be an assumption that he doesn't have one, or that he's just making it all up out of thin air. I think this is rather scandalous; I have heard him make statements about the timeless and formless nature of the dharmakaya being central in these kinds of matters. If there is no time, then what is live and what is not live? I'm personally not equipped to make or even understand these kinds of arguments, but they need to be on the table if we're going to seriously engage with this question.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Montoya wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:15 pm
ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pmHe says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.
Argument from authority: a formal fallacy in which it is argued that because a perceived authority figure (or figures) believes a proposition (relevant to their authority) to be true, that proposition must therefore be true. This is also known as an appeal to authority.

We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.
I don't find this to be particularly convincing. The whole premise of the fallacy is that saying "So and so says it's true, so it is" is not a very strong argument. However, throughout this thread you merely swap a human authority for a scriptural one. "Because the tantras say it is so, it is." I understand your point about falling into relativism if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that is also the whole notion behind the fallacy to begin with.
No, I actually gave reasonings based on the procedures of how empowerments are carried out. I supported my argument with reasoning and did not cite a single scripture. How could I? There is no mention of receiving empowerments from recordings in any classical text. How could there be? However, if, as has been reasoned, a recorded empowerment does not ripen a student for the reasons I stated above, the clear consequence is that the student has not received a ripening empowerment and therefore, in the case of a total beginner, is not eligible to practice any Vajrayāna teaching, let alone hear them. In this case, there are a number of scriptural authorities that come into play about the necessity of receiving empowerments. Claiming the opposite, without providing any other reasons than what amounts to "He said so" is purely argumentum ab auctoritate.

To clarify, this really isn't about Garchen Rinpoche and his opinions specifically. This is about preventing a general collapse of the tradition. If one can receive an empowerment from a recording, then it would be simple to just record a nice version of one, complete with animated visualizations, a virtual guru, a digitized voice, etc., just as long as the text is rendered in full and it is authorized by some authority.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Soma999
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Soma999 »

With texts alone you are stuck with the letters.
With the guru you reach the essence of the text.

The guru which is more than a person, which is a principle, is way above texts. They allow us to really perceive the essence of the text and integrate its wisdom.

Texts can make us fundamentalist, more especially if the letter is grasped. Guru awaken wisdom within so that the texts become a door to wisdom.

Guru is also inner wisdom, that shines as boddicitta reveals its presence.

Without the help of the guru principle, the texts are just letters.

It is easy to delude oneself with over-intellectualism on text. Gurus prevent this danger.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

We have to accept an ultimate authority. We accept the texts. They must be interpreted. The interpretation that is mostly closely aligned with the meaning of the texts is the better one.

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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Archie2009 »

This discussion reminds me of a recent podcast (Bill Maher's Club Random), I'll quote: "The problem is, on any topic it is always possible to find a PhD who is a lunatic." - Sam Harris

No offense.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by stoneinfocus »

Virgo wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:52 pm We have to accept an ultimate authority. We accept the texts. They must be interpreted. The interpretation that is mostly closely aligned with the meaning of the texts is the better one.

Virgo
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Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

Soma999 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:45 pm With texts alone you are stuck with the letters.
With the guru you reach the essence of the text.

The guru which is more than a person, which is a principle, is way above texts. They allow us to really perceive the essence of the text and integrate its wisdom.

Texts can make us fundamentalist, more especially if the letter is grasped. Guru awaken wisdom within so that the texts become a door to wisdom.

Guru is also inner wisdom, that shines as boddicitta reveals its presence.

Without the help of the guru principle, the texts are just letters.

It is easy to delude oneself with over-intellectualism on text. Gurus prevent this danger.
There is no "guru principle" which is like Krishna consciousness.

Gurus are not omnipotent magical beings. They are human beings, some of them might actually be realized. Most of them are not.

The tantras described their qualities in human terms because they are humans.

The only person who awakens the wisdom within is oneself. The guru merely aids this process, as the Hevajra Tantra points out:

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality
can’t be described by another,
the connate cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru,
time, method, and from one’s merit.


So, not even a guru is sufficient, there is more to it than that, which is why the question of empowerment is so crucial.
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tobes
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:43 pm
Montoya wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:15 pm

Argument from authority: a formal fallacy in which it is argued that because a perceived authority figure (or figures) believes a proposition (relevant to their authority) to be true, that proposition must therefore be true. This is also known as an appeal to authority.

We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.
I don't find this to be particularly convincing. The whole premise of the fallacy is that saying "So and so says it's true, so it is" is not a very strong argument. However, throughout this thread you merely swap a human authority for a scriptural one. "Because the tantras say it is so, it is." I understand your point about falling into relativism if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that is also the whole notion behind the fallacy to begin with.
No, I actually gave reasonings based on the procedures of how empowerments are carried out. I supported my argument with reasoning and did not cite a single scripture. How could I? There is no mention of receiving empowerments from recordings in any classical text. How could there be? However, if, as has been reasoned, a recorded empowerment does not ripen a student for the reasons I stated above, the clear consequence is that the student has not received a ripening empowerment and therefore, in the case of a total beginner, is not eligible to practice any Vajrayāna teaching, let alone hear them. In this case, there are a number of scriptural authorities that come into play about the necessity of receiving empowerments. Claiming the opposite, without providing any other reasons than what amounts to "He said so" is purely argumentum ab auctoritate.
But here you must admit that one could draw other kinds of inferences (from other kinds of places) that contradict this particular one. They may not be about procedure; they may be about intent or bodhicitta or samaya or some other kind of precedent. i.e. we are no longer in the sphere of what a text says, but rather, what we choose to draw out of it on the basis of our knowledge, intent and understanding.

For example, I heard HHDL make such an argument for a student who badly wanted a Kalachakra wang, but got held up and couldn't attend. He used the scriptural precedent of Shakyamuni giving refuge to a person who was similarly stuck afar as the basis for his inference that she could enter the mandala from afar. One might respond: oh, wow, he's using to sutra to justify tantra?? But, well, this HHDL. Authority, when it is well grounded, clearly matters here.

But the real point is that we need to acknowledge that the complexity of this question may well give rise to inconsistencies.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by conebeckham »

Soma999 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:45 pm With texts alone you are stuck with the letters.
With the guru you reach the essence of the text.

The guru which is more than a person, which is a principle, is way above texts. They allow us to really perceive the essence of the text and integrate its wisdom.

Texts can make us fundamentalist, more especially if the letter is grasped. Guru awaken wisdom within so that the texts become a door to wisdom.

Guru is also inner wisdom, that shines as boddicitta reveals its presence.

Without the help of the guru principle, the texts are just letters.

It is easy to delude oneself with over-intellectualism on text. Gurus prevent this danger.

Of course we Vajrayana practitioners recognize the primacy of the Guru. But the Guru exists in context of a tradition, and that tradition includes "texts" as well as the oral tradition of explication, the tradition of application and practice, etc.

We all agree that texts on their own do not convey empowerment or permission, and this should be clear to all who practice Vajrayana at any level. Actual transmission is essential.

But the Vajrayana Guru shows us the Vajrayana Path. Not the path of Satsang, or Bhakti, or any other sort of tradition or transmission outside of Vajrayana.

Anyone who has been doing this "Vajrayana thing" for any length of time surely recognizes that there are people out there who identify as "gurus" or who are identified as gurus by others, who may in fact not be truly qualified to lead students on the Vajrayana path.

I am not speaking specifically of Garchen Rinpoche, or of any particular Guru, to be clear. I am trying to point out that Vajrayana practitioners cannot "isolate" the Guru from the tradition and all that it entails.

Without lineage, without tradition, without texts and techniques, there is no guru, in our tradition. These elements function together.

Following "text" without any sort of oral commentary or instruction can make fools of us, nevermind "Fundamentalists." But following a "Guru" who does not maintain a lineage, does not reflect a valid tradition, can lead to all sorts of problems.
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Virgo »

conebeckham wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:23 am I am trying to point out that Vajrayana practitioners cannot "isolate" the Guru from the tradition and all that it entails.
But he sits on the throne. Spiritual texts cannot do that. Plus rocks.

And why should a rock have to pay attention to what a text says anyway?

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Malcolm
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:11 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:43 pm
Montoya wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:55 pm

I don't find this to be particularly convincing. The whole premise of the fallacy is that saying "So and so says it's true, so it is" is not a very strong argument. However, throughout this thread you merely swap a human authority for a scriptural one. "Because the tantras say it is so, it is." I understand your point about falling into relativism if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that is also the whole notion behind the fallacy to begin with.
No, I actually gave reasonings based on the procedures of how empowerments are carried out. I supported my argument with reasoning and did not cite a single scripture. How could I? There is no mention of receiving empowerments from recordings in any classical text. How could there be? However, if, as has been reasoned, a recorded empowerment does not ripen a student for the reasons I stated above, the clear consequence is that the student has not received a ripening empowerment and therefore, in the case of a total beginner, is not eligible to practice any Vajrayāna teaching, let alone hear them. In this case, there are a number of scriptural authorities that come into play about the necessity of receiving empowerments. Claiming the opposite, without providing any other reasons than what amounts to "He said so" is purely argumentum ab auctoritate.
But here you must admit that one could draw other kinds of inferences (from other kinds of places) that contradict this particular one. They may not be about procedure; they may be about intent or bodhicitta or samaya or some other kind of precedent. i.e. we are no longer in the sphere of what a text says, but rather, what we choose to draw out of it on the basis of our knowledge, intent and understanding.
Ockham's razor.

For example, I heard HHDL make such an argument for a student who badly wanted a Kalachakra wang, but got held up and couldn't attend. He used the scriptural precedent of Shakyamuni giving refuge to a person who was similarly stuck afar as the basis for his inference that she could enter the mandala from afar. One might respond: oh, wow, he's using to sutra to justify tantra?? But, well, this HHDL. Authority, when it is well grounded, clearly matters here.
This was in reference to attending the preliminary day of the empowerment. And, it was live. Not from a recording. My entire point has to do with live vs. memorex.
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I am not basing my argument on specious claims about supernormal powers, etc. My argument is based simply on the dependent origination of the process of empowerment. So far, apart from mystical interpretations which depend on another fallacy, special pleading, which Seeker and Soma are prone to, the only objections to my points are arguments from authority, which I have already dispensed with summarily.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:23 am Of course we Vajrayana practitioners recognize the primacy of the Guru.
There are four interrelated authorities. This is a very useful teaching as it is found in Lamdre, which is common teaching shared between Sakya and the Kagyu traditions that stem from Phagmodru Dorje Gyalpo. This is the four authorities, which teachers I know as varied as HH Dalai Lama and ChNN have mentioned as very important.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by jet.urgyen »

There is a way to overcome doubts: if you are a GR student then you should be able to hear a tape of a transmission, put it into practice, and find proof in the effects.

It should be that simple. No?
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by Miorita »

The GBI had one case of Covid-19. They're closed now.
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Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments

Post by ZopaChotso »

I choose to believe my teachers(plural) who say recorded empowerments are fine, over the opinion of an internet forum. They have valid credentials, lineage, and years of teaching. That authority is a real one, and can be appealed to non-fallaciously. If anyone disagrees, that's fine, your lineage and teachers may do it differently. That doesn't change the reality for students of this lineage and these teachers.
I don't possess the realization HEGR has, and until I do, I will trust his view on this topic.
Last edited by ZopaChotso on Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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