Are merit and demerit simply positive and negative karma?

[Kalanchoe]

Hi,

My question is basically the title: are merit and demerit the same things as positive and negative karma?

Thanks

[PadmaVonSamba]

are merit and demerit the same things as positive and negative karma?

Not exactly. Also, I’ve never heard Buddhist teachings mention “demerit”.

The accumulation of merit is somewhat like the developing proficiency one gets if they practice baking every day, in that it sort of becomes automatic, becomes part of who you are, in a sense. It’s more about the development of qualities, such as the six perfections, generosity, patience, and so on. If you practice patience intentionally, eventually patience will occur automatically.

Karma is similar in that specific actions create specific imprints in the mind, and those actions set into motion events which will later manifest in ways that reflect that which was initially ‘planted’.

But the difference is that karma itself isn’t developing qualities in the same sense as accumulating merit.

Accumulation of merit is like becoming a proficient baker. Karma is more like what you are baking. If your ingredients and recipe are for chocolate chip cookies, then what comes out of the oven will be cookies, and not apple pie. That’s karma. Whether the cookies are undercooked, burnt, or just right depends on your development as a baker. That’s merit.

[Kalanchoe]

I see, but what about an action like giving food to the monks? Some would call that a meritorious deed.

Isn't it both good karma, that will result in a later effect, and a development of the perfections?

[Kalanchoe]

Actually, is it that a good action produces merit- it cleanses the mind and develops the perfections- and also is positive karma- it will result in a positive effect?

And I think that the 'demerit' I was talking about is simply bad action, which would evidence the kilesas and produces a negative karmic effect.

[Johnny Dangerous]

are merit and demerit the same things as positive and negative karma?

Not exactly. Also, I’ve never heard Buddhist teachings mention “demerit”.

The accumulation of merit is somewhat like the developing proficiency one gets if they practice baking every day, in that it sort of becomes automatic, becomes part of who you are, in a sense. It’s more about the development of qualities, such as the six perfections, generosity, patience, and so on. If you practice patience intentionally, eventually patience will occur automatically.

Karma is similar in that specific actions create specific imprints in the mind, and those actions set into motion events which will later manifest in ways that reflect that which was initially ‘planted’.

But the difference is that karma itself isn’t developing qualities in the same sense as accumulating merit.

Accumulation of merit is like becoming a proficient baker. Karma is more like what you are baking. If your ingredients and recipe are for chocolate chip cookies, then what comes out of the oven will be cookies, and not apple pie. That’s karma. Whether the cookies are undercooked, burnt, or just right depends on your development as a baker. That’s merit.

There are translated Pali sources (the Dhammapada for example, IIRC) that use the term demerit in contexts like “lying is demerit”, “tale-bearing is demerit”, etc. I recall it being pretty common in Pali stuff, where often there is a statement of what makes merit, followed by a statement of what doesn’t, or vice versa.

Here’s an example with some relevant Sutta quotes:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN2_134.html

[PadmaVonSamba]

There are translated Pali sources (the Dhammapada for example, IIRC) that use the term demerit in contexts like “lying is demerit”, “tale-bearing is demerit”, etc. I recall it being pretty common in Pali stuff, where often there is a statement of what makes merit, followed by a statement of what doesn’t, or vice versa.

Here’s an example with some relevant Sutta quotes:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN2_134.html

That’s true. I think I’ve usually seen that phrased as “virtuous”

[PadmaVonSamba]

I see, but what about an action like giving food to the monks? Some would call that a meritorious deed.

Isn't it both good karma, that will result in a later effect, and a development of the perfections?

Both, yes, but not exactly the same thing.
Performing a specific act of generosity will result in positive results from that act.
But it will also develop in one’s mind a pervading attitude of generosity. That’s more along the lines of merit.
Also,
You can dedicate merit
But you don’t dedicate karma.

[Kalanchoe]

are merit and demerit the same things as positive and negative karma?

Not exactly. Also, I’ve never heard Buddhist teachings mention “demerit”.

The accumulation of merit is somewhat like the developing proficiency one gets if they practice baking every day, in that it sort of becomes automatic, becomes part of who you are, in a sense. It’s more about the development of qualities, such as the six perfections, generosity, patience, and so on. If you practice patience intentionally, eventually patience will occur automatically.

Karma is similar in that specific actions create specific imprints in the mind, and those actions set into motion events which will later manifest in ways that reflect that which was initially ‘planted’.

But the difference is that karma itself isn’t developing qualities in the same sense as accumulating merit.

Accumulation of merit is like becoming a proficient baker. Karma is more like what you are baking. If your ingredients and recipe are for chocolate chip cookies, then what comes out of the oven will be cookies, and not apple pie. That’s karma. Whether the cookies are undercooked, burnt, or just right depends on your development as a baker. That’s merit.

Also, could I use your baking analogy? (Don't worry, I will give you credit in my research- I'm not just a plagiariser )

[Aemilius]

Maha Prajnaparamita Sastra says:

Part 5 - Establishing beings in the puṇyakriyāvastus

+ I. Puṇyakriyāvastu consisting of generosity
. I.1. Definition of generosity (dāna)
. I.2. Pure and impure generosity (dāna)
. I.3. Increase of merit
. I.4. Models of generosity
. The Velāma-jātaka
. The Viśvantara-jātaka
. The Sarvaṃdada-Jātaka
. The Śibi-Jātaka
. The Śaśa-Jātaka
. The Sumedhā-Jātaka
. The Śaivala-Jātaka
. The Mallikā-Jātaka [notes]
. The Śivā-Jātaka
. The Ugratagṛhapati-jātaka
II. Puṇyakriyāvastu consisting of morality
III. Puṇyakriyāvastu consisting of meditation
IV. Puṇyakriyāvastu consisting of encouragement
V. Meritorious actions consisting of material gifts and of teaching

Sūtra (cf. Pañcaviṃśati, p. 29, l. 18–30, l. 2; Śatasāhasrikā, p. 96, l. 1–11). – Furthermore, O Śāriputra, the bodhisattva-mahāsattva must practice the perfection of wisdom of he wants to establish all beings in the place of practice of the meritorious action consisting of generosity, in the place of practice consisting of morality, in the place of practice consisting of meditation, in the place of practice consisting of incentive; if he wants to establish beings in meritorious material works and in meritorious works of the Dharma.

Question. – What is the place of practice of meritorious action (puṇyakriyāvastu) called?

Answer. – The Abhidharma says that merit (puṇya) is an action of body, speech or mind (kāyavāṅmanaskarma) that is good-impure (kuśalasāsrava).

Some say that it is unobscured-indeterminate (anivṛtāvyākṛta). Why? Because as a result of a good-impure action, one obtains as fruit of retribution (vipākapjhala) a merit (puṇya) which is also unobscured-indeterminate, and that this fruit of retribution, it too, is called merit. In the same way, worldly people call ‘a meritorious man’ [not only the man who carries out meritorious actions] but the one who, having actualized great things, has multiplied his successes.

In brief (saṃkṣepeṇa), this merit is of three kinds: it consists of generosity (dāna), morality (śīla) and meditation (bhāvanā).

from https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 26278.html

[Giovanni]

I see, but what about an action like giving food to the monks? Some would call that a meritorious deed.

Isn't it both good karma, that will result in a later effect, and a development of the perfections

Karma- vipaka (the result of karma/action) largely depends on motive. Actions in themselves largely are neutral depending on motivation. There are actions which can never come from good motivation, but most are mixed.