Two Truths Doctrine

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MagnetSoulSP
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Two Truths Doctrine

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

I knew someone who talked about this a lot and I know the terms conventional and ultimate reality got thrown around a lot when it comes to that. But I got stuck on the part of ultimate reality that they were talking about, where there is no reason to feel a certain way about anything because stuff just happens but that conventional reality is the world of meaning that we live in.

I didn't understand it. When I told her that that's like saying everything isn't real and what I feel is a lie or not real she said I was stuck in absolutism because I got hung up on the ultimate. Needless to say I didn't get it.

I don't understand if there is ultimate reality then how can you just go back to living the day to day as if things matter, aren't you pretending at that point? I also didn't understand loss being false at ultimate reality (in regards to someone dying), heck I don't even understand ultimate reality.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by takso »

The verdict is that all phenomena are dependent, i.e. it does not exist in an intrinsic way like this or that on their own sides, unrelated to the consciousness that perceives them. Any conclusions made are merely two sides of the same coin. For general understanding, our mind is the chief architect of discrimination of all existence. Just like the famous citation by Brian G. Dyson (former CEO of Coca-Cola), “Value has a value only if its value is valued”. In other words, all classifications relating to life and death are human constructs, that is, notions of mental consciousness per se. Without it, all things would appear according to the deepest facts per se, namely no label, no limit, no name, no activity, no form, no description, etc.

The road to liberation may be simplified and straightforward. All you need is just to appreciate it and try it without hesitation. Be ready and brace yourself for your mental transformation. This involves observing without identifying with thoughts. And the systemic migration from identifying thoughts to observing is known as the progressive transformation of mentality into a Buddha nature. Simply put, it means that your flow of mind should be in a steady state all the time. Yes, equanimity is the cure you need all of this time. Benefit from your liberation immediately!

In the end, there is nothing superficial about Buddhism. The earth would still turn 24 hours a day under cosmic laws, even if we have reached enlightenment. The first thing we need to figure out is our attitude. We just need to see things from the deep or inner point of view rather than the reverse. In other words, Buddhism is not about circumstances, it is about the attitude towards circumstances. Simply change the way you view your environment and you can glimpse a totally different perspective. The Buddha simply taught that one must see all things as they really are and not tangle with them through ignorance.
~ Ignorance triumphs when wise men do nothing ~
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Astus »

Ardha wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:46 pmthere is no reason to feel a certain way about anything because stuff just happens but that conventional reality is the world of meaning that we live in.
Quite the opposite, there is always a reason, or rather several conditions, to feel a certain way about things. Conventionally: feeling is an act and experience of a being, a self. Ultimately: a temporary feeling is a product of causes and conditions, there is neither an actor nor an experiencer behind the feeling. That is the emptiness of person, of self. And if one investigates further, the feeling, its arising and disappearing, and its causes are also just mere concepts. That is the emptiness of phenomena.
I don't understand if there is ultimate reality then how can you just go back to living the day to day as if things matter, aren't you pretending at that point?
There is no one to go away or come back, that is the primary delusion of positing a self. So if it feels like pretending, then that is a misconstruction of what emptiness means.
I also didn't understand loss being false at ultimate reality (in regards to someone dying), heck I don't even understand ultimate reality.
Without an owner there is no possession, without a possession there is nothing gained or lost.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by weitsicht »

Ardha wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:46 pm I didn't understand it. When I told her that that's like saying everything isn't real and what I feel is a lie or not real she said I was stuck in absolutism because I got hung up on the ultimate. Needless to say I didn't get it.

I don't understand if there is ultimate reality then how can you just go back to living the day to day as if things matter, aren't you pretending at that point? I also didn't understand loss being false at ultimate reality (in regards to someone dying), heck I don't even understand ultimate reality.
Ultimately there's happening without subject-object separation. Acting without agent. The two become inseparable. Until then we do our best.

The timing of your question is funny, James Low just gave a Zoom teaching on Patrul Rinpoche's text last weekend. It'll be online soon (youtube).

It takes study effort to wrap one's mind around this issue, but imo worth it.
When you venture it, please don't forget that the absurdity of paradox doesn't make it nonexistant. :sage:
Ardha wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:46 pm I knew someone who talked about this a lot
Uninvited a lot talking about things that are paradox in themselves are futile... unless you are aspiring gelug geshe of which I don't know much
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Without relative truth,
There’s nothing to apply absolute truth to.
Absolute truth is only true
Within the context of relative truth.

For example, the experience of “me” is relative truth. There is a “me” posting a reply on DW.
But the Buddha says, “if you look for that “me” can you find it truly exists anywhere?”
No, you can’t. That’s ultimate truth.
But without that relative-truth “me” as the context, ultimate truth wouldn’t make any sense.
If the Buddha said “look for where gn4ff3ponk exists” it wouldn’t make any sense, because even in relative truth there is no experience of “gn4ff3ponk”.

In practical terms, actually you are correct. Even when you realize the illusory nature of things, you have to pretend they are real. Why? In order to benefit all sentient beings.

Eventually all Buddhist meditators will have realizations about the empty nature of things. This is not rare or unusual at all. It’s why many times you find Buddhists remain calm in the face of things while others run around in a panic. In a sense, it’s like being an adult compared with being a small child. Suppose a small child drops her ice cream cone. She gets upset and starts to cry. But the adult doesn’t do that because the adult has developed the realization that it was temporary anyway.

That adult understands the ultimate truth about the ice cream cone but the child only knows the relative truth.
So, in order to benefit the child, the adult pretends that it matters, and can console the child, or maybe buy another ice cream or whatever.

Likewise, realization of ultimate truth should not weaken your grasp on reality. Just the opposite. Not that it is some kind of super-power or anything like that, but it should enable you. You should have more freedom, not being locked into conventional concepts as much. If you need to prop a door open, and you see a brick, you can use the brick to prop open the door because you know that ultimately there is no “brick” because “brick” is something that is cemented into the wall of a building. But you see it as simple a heavy rectangular object, which is closer to its ultimate truth.

But the challenge now is that you know more than some other people around you. You know the secret of how the magician performs his magic tricks, so they don’t baffle you any more. So, it can be frustrating, like if you see your loved ones fighting over things that don’t really matter. You can’t just tell them “it’s not real” because they can’t grasp that yet. And if the child who dropped her ice cream won’t stop screaming, yeah, relative truth can get pretty annoying.

But the other challenge is that even with that insight, you are not a fully enlightened Buddha. We are all still “wallowing” in relative truth, even in subtle ways that we can’t escape, simply due to the fact of being born in the human realm. When we get old and sick and die, that’s all relative truth too. There is still a lot of work to do.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Jeff H »

The conventional world starts here: Perceptions by any of the senses innately appear to truly exist. It’s like the billiard ball model of physics; there appear to be solid, self-contained objects truly existing and interacting out there. That innate perception only goes away upon reaching full enlightenment. But the ability to observe the emptiness of the perceived objects makes a profound difference in the way one understands and interacts with the objective world.

The starting place is to think about what it means to “truly exist”. If a thing in itself was real, it would be independent. All its qualities and characteristics would be inherent to itself. “It is what it is.” However, the implication of independence is to depend on nothing but itself. It’s one thing to think of a dependent child growing up to become an independent adult, but that is not true independence. To be truly independent means not being influenced by anything outside of oneself.

There is no thing whatsoever that can be independent in that sense. Things and beings come into existence by means of external causes and conditions and they continue to change by further external influences bit by bit until they are no longer what we once understood them to be. We all see this in the “coarse” level of causality we experience daily. We and everything we perceive changes and decays.

But Buddhism looks deeper, to the “subtle” level of causality. Those coarse changes we see are only possible because of subtle impermanence: the fact that everything undergoes imperceptible changes every instant. Nothing lasts for two moments. Nothing has any characteristic of its own. Every characteristic of any object is the result of a cause external to itself. That is the meaning of emptiness, not that nothing matters or nothing exists.

This is the concept your friend is trying to convey to you. The process for you, then, is to see if you can knock a logical hole in that position. That can lead to a basic understanding of the concept of emptiness. But that’s just the start. Keep analyzing, observing, and gathering different explanations to regularly check the accuracy of your understanding. Then meditate on it. That is, set aside time to relax with the notion of emptiness without intellectualizing it.

If you find it makes you believe that nothing matters, stop. Go back. You misunderstood and took a wrong turn. That’s where bodhichitta comes in. Recognize that there are infinite empty beings like yourself all caught up in the mistaken belief of true existence. Because of that belief we are all generating our own misery. It’s just sad! Any being who can break through that bad dream and awaken to the way things really do exist, instead of getting stuck in the way they seem to exist, has made immeasurable progress in reducing the negative effects of samsara.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ardha wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:46 pm I knew someone who talked about this a lot and I know the terms conventional and ultimate reality got thrown around a lot when it comes to that. But I got stuck on the part of ultimate reality that they were talking about, where there is no reason to feel a certain way about anything because stuff just happens but that conventional reality is the world of meaning that we live in.

I didn't understand it. When I told her that that's like saying everything isn't real and what I feel is a lie or not real she said I was stuck in absolutism because I got hung up on the ultimate. Needless to say I didn't get it.

I don't understand if there is ultimate reality then how can you just go back to living the day to day as if things matter, aren't you pretending at that point? I also didn't understand loss being false at ultimate reality (in regards to someone dying), heck I don't even understand ultimate reality.
Yes, we are all pretending and dreaming. However it’s in everyone’s best interest if it’s a good, compassionate dream. If someone is not ready to focus on the whole ultimate reality bit, there is nothing wrong with just trying to make your dream better, or helping others do the same. None of this stuff is compulsory.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by laic »

I wouldn't really call it a doctrine. More just the almost necessary complications once we decide that surely this can't be "it". Then in comes a host of various ideas, concepts and explanations, satisfying to some, called into question by others.

The necessary simplicity will always be complex in attempts at explanation as words -and duality - capture us.

"A condition of complete simplicity (costing not less than everything)" as T. S.Eliot has it. But as he is not an eastern guru - or at least has assumed no pretentious name - many will pay no attention. Another from Mr Eliot is:-

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time


Then we can have W. H. Auden:-

For the garden is the only place there is, but you will not find it
Until you have looked for it everywhere and found nowhere that is not a desert.
The miracle is the only thing that happens, but to you it will not be apparent
Until all events have been studied and nothing happens to you that you cannot explain.
Life is the destiny you are bound to refuse until you have consented to die.


In zen, the mountains are mountains, and rivers are rivers.......then we begin our search because this is not enough.......eventually they return as what they have always been, this if we have consented to die.

There are many forms of death between the mountains resuming their own paricularity. Samsara is nirvana, therefore there is no betrayal of this world for any imagined "other". Most "religion" is such a betrayal.

To be honest, I have no idea exactly where I am. The complexity confuses me. I tend to see that the journey itself is home and the seeing of this deepens, though as Dogen says:- "nothing is concealed". "Now" is the only moment. The "mystery" is ever before us, yet there is "a movement towards Buddha". I love his words and poetry.

My quotes are over. I can now safely be ignored.

May true Dharma continue.
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Last edited by laic on Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Aemilius »

Ardha wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:46 pm I knew someone who talked about this a lot and I know the terms conventional and ultimate reality got thrown around a lot when it comes to that. But I got stuck on the part of ultimate reality that they were talking about, where there is no reason to feel a certain way about anything because stuff just happens but that conventional reality is the world of meaning that we live in.

I didn't understand it. When I told her that that's like saying everything isn't real and what I feel is a lie or not real she said I was stuck in absolutism because I got hung up on the ultimate. Needless to say I didn't get it.

I don't understand if there is ultimate reality then how can you just go back to living the day to day as if things matter, aren't you pretending at that point? I also didn't understand loss being false at ultimate reality (in regards to someone dying), heck I don't even understand ultimate reality.
We can start analyzing about anything that exists in our ordinary world, like for example one's father and mother. Are they ultimately your father and mother or the ultimate father and mother? They are not, because before becoming your father and mother they were something else, just young people, usually.

Also, they have not ultimately produced you, because there are several other factors necessary for your production (in this life), like the first three links in the Pratitya samutpada: 1. ignorance, 2. karmic formations, and 3. consciousness; and the hospital personnel that helped the first appearance of your name and form (namarupa) in this life. And other necessary factors are the parents of your parents, their parents etc.. until the dawn of evolution in this universe and on planet Earth.

In this way you can try to find the true or ultimate nature of ordinary concepts or the nature of conventional phenomena. It is not only Buddhism that does this, all branches of philosophy also do it, in different ways.
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Ayu »

In order to understand the Two Truths, you probably need a teacher in meatspace, who understand them well, who is able to answer your questions kindly, explains it intelligibly according to your capacities and helps you in meditating on the topic.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by laic »

Or possibly just have Faith that things will be made to become so of themselves beyond our calculations. But let's not put the masters out of business.

:smile:
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:46 pm…where there is no reason to feel a certain way about anything because stuff just happens but that conventional reality is the world of meaning that we live in.
You got stuck here because this is not a correct understanding, but a misunderstanding. “Reason” and “feel” (or feelings) don’t have anything to do with each other. ‘Reason’ is logical, ‘feeling’ is not.

You may or may or may not give rise to certain feelings (which after all, are merely thoughts) but you don’t need a reason. Yet, if one understands the concept of two truths (which I think you basically do) and meditates on sunyata (emptiness) then emotions, even when they arise, won’t have any power to them. They will be like bits of tape that won’t stick to anything.

The emotions and feelings are also emptiness. So, not only is the event that triggers a feeling lacking ultimate reality, but the feeling is also lacking any ultimate reality. But this doesn’t mean there is a ‘reason’ not to care about anything.

I think there’s an assumption being made:
X lacks ultimate reality, therefore X doesn’t matter. But this assumes that in order for something to matter, it must possess ultimate (intrinsic) reality, which in Buddhist terms means it is a self-caused phenomenon, and not a product of dependent origination. But just the opposite is true: it is precisely because all phenomena arise interdependently that things matter.

In other words, because of ultimate truth, things matter. Relative truth matters because, lacking intrinsic reality, we are all connected. If things were otherwise, and there was no dependent arising, that is when things wouldn’t matter because nothing would have any effect on anything else.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:00 pm
Ardha wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:46 pm…where there is no reason to feel a certain way about anything because stuff just happens but that conventional reality is the world of meaning that we live in.
You got stuck here because this is not a correct understanding, but a misunderstanding. “Reason” and “feel” (or feelings) don’t have anything to do with each other. ‘Reason’ is logical, ‘feeling’ is not.

You may or may or may not give rise to certain feelings (which after all, are merely thoughts) but you don’t need a reason. Yet, if one understands the concept of two truths (which I think you basically do) and meditates on sunyata (emptiness) then emotions, even when they arise, won’t have any power to them. They will be like bits of tape that won’t stick to anything.

The emotions and feelings are also emptiness. So, not only is the event that triggers a feeling lacking ultimate reality, but the feeling is also lacking any ultimate reality. But this doesn’t mean there is a ‘reason’ not to care about anything.

I think there’s an assumption being made:
X lacks ultimate reality, therefore X doesn’t matter. But this assumes that in order for something to matter, it must possess ultimate (intrinsic) reality, which in Buddhist terms means it is a self-caused phenomenon, and not a product of dependent origination. But just the opposite is true: it is precisely because all phenomena arise interdependently that things matter.

In other words, because of ultimate truth, things matter. Relative truth matters because, lacking intrinsic reality, we are all connected. If things were otherwise, and there was no dependent arising, that is when things wouldn’t matter because nothing would have any effect on anything else.
But if ultimately "nothing matters" then why would that make things matter relatively.

I dont know if that's a good way to live though. Someone mentioned earlier essentially pretending this stuff is real and...I don't know if I could do that. Essentially just pretending the world is real while knowing it isn't? How could I enjoy anything? WOuld I still be able to knowing it's not ultimately real and that feelings are empty? Would I even be able to relate to people at that point or engage with the world honestly? Would I be able to fall in love or make friends when I know the emotions I feel are just empty?

This is what I meant by the emotions part though:
after that first level, it is appropriate to feel a variety of ways to share in social experiences
if people around you are depressed over loss, the compassionate thing is often to commiserate with them, rather than tell them their loss is false and not worth crying over
if people around you want to give you gifts and celebrate their promotion at work, the compassionate thing is to thank them for the gifts and share in their celebration to maximize their feelings of joy
in both situations, the individual with "true understanding" knows there is no reason to feel anything with regards to either situation as they are just random things that occur through particle and waves in reality colliding
but the conventionally appropriate way of being in the world may include feeling depressed over things to empathetically connect with other people
Like...At some level I feel like I understand it, but it's not something I want to accept because it feels so heartless to me.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:57 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:00 pm In other words, because of ultimate truth, things matter. Relative truth matters because, lacking intrinsic reality, we are all connected. If things were otherwise, and there was no dependent arising, that is when things wouldn’t matter because nothing would have any effect on anything else.
But if ultimately "nothing matters" then why would that make things matter relatively.
You misread what I wrote.
I didn’t say that ultimately "nothing matters" or that this would make things matter relatively.

I said that if things only existed as self-arisen and not dependently arisen, nothing would matter.

This is because, by definition, a self-arisen entity would not be affected (thus changed) by any causes, and that is because if another object were to cause it to change, then it would now be a different entity than it was before, and now dependent on that other input.

So, if you were a self-arisen thirsty being, then having a drink of water would make no difference. It would have no effect on you.
I dont know if that's a good way to live though. Someone mentioned earlier essentially pretending this stuff is real and...I don't know if I could do that. Essentially just pretending the world is real while knowing it isn't? How could I enjoy anything?
nobody says your experiences aren’t really occurring. Dreams occur, don’t they?

Ultimate truth and relative truth doesn’t mean real and unreal.
And if it did mean that, then the answer would simply be that nothing is real, so how are you enjoying it now?
Would I even be able to relate to people at that point or engage with the world honestly? Would I be able to fall in love or make friends when I know the emotions I feel are just empty?
“empty” means dependently arising, not hollow and meaningless.
This is what the Buddha did, and he seems to have gotten by pretty well.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:57 pm I dont know if that's a good way to live though. Someone mentioned earlier essentially pretending this stuff is real and...I don't know if I could do that.
Relative truth is that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.
Ultimate truth is that it’s actually the Earth rotating that creates the illusion of the Sun moving across the sky. The Sun doesn’t really rise and set.

But does knowing the true nature of how day and night occur make the experience any less enjoyable? Does knowing that movies are actually an illusion created by still images flashing 24 times per second make them less enjoyable?
Does knowing that the people in horror movies are just actors make the movie less suspenseful?

What I am saying is that we are already aware that lots of things are not the way they appear to be, and we all get by just fine with it, except for when the truth hits us. We pretend that we are not going to get sick and get old and die. But as the Buddha pointed out, these things are inevitable.

It I think it is more accurate to say that at the point where you truly have direct experience (not just an intellectual understanding) of ultimate truth, the way you experience emotions, love and friendships and so on, is really on somewhat of a different level.
I don’t mean that in some mystical way, but what I mean is, usually we approach everything with attachment and self-grasping, which in a way is very limiting.

It’s like, imagine if someone went to a zoo and the only way they could think of how to experience the animals was in terms of what it would be like to eat them. So, there is all this beauty and diversity but this person only thinks in terms of how a zebra might taste. This is sort of a ridiculous metaphor, but because of our habitual self-grasping, it’s very similar to what many people do. They only consider whether something will make them some money, or what what it would be like having sex with this person or that person, or what if they dressed a certain way, and so on. Because we take relative truth for ultimate truth, we often miss just how wide and expansive everything really is. So, I would say that understanding ultimate truth wouldn’t cause your appreciation of things to diminish. Just the opposite.

Seeing that things aren’t separate, rigid constructs, but that everything is in constant motion should really give one a lot more freedom, more movement. Knowing that pleasant things are temporary makes one appreciate them more, and knowing that unpleasant things are like storms that will soon pass, one doesn’t get pulled down by them.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:01 am
Ardha wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:57 pm I dont know if that's a good way to live though. Someone mentioned earlier essentially pretending this stuff is real and...I don't know if I could do that.
Relative truth is that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.
Ultimate truth is that it’s actually the Earth rotating that creates the illusion of the Sun moving across the sky. The Sun doesn’t really rise and set.

But does knowing the true nature of how day and night occur make the experience any less enjoyable? Does knowing that movies are actually an illusion created by still images flashing 24 times per second make them less enjoyable?
Does knowing that the people in horror movies are just actors make the movie less suspenseful?

What I am saying is that we are already aware that lots of things are not the way they appear to be, and we all get by just fine with it, except for when the truth hits us. We pretend that we are not going to get sick and get old and die. But as the Buddha pointed out, these things are inevitable.

It I think it is more accurate to say that at the point where you truly have direct experience (not just an intellectual understanding) of ultimate truth, the way you experience emotions, love and friendships and so on, is really on somewhat of a different level.
I don’t mean that in some mystical way, but what I mean is, usually we approach everything with attachment and self-grasping, which in a way is very limiting.

It’s like, imagine if someone went to a zoo and the only way they could think of how to experience the animals was in terms of what it would be like to eat them. So, there is all this beauty and diversity but this person only thinks in terms of how a zebra might taste. This is sort of a ridiculous metaphor, but because of our habitual self-grasping, it’s very similar to what many people do. They only consider whether something will make them some money, or what what it would be like having sex with this person or that person, or what if they dressed a certain way, and so on. Because we take relative truth for ultimate truth, we often miss just how wide and expansive everything really is. So, I would say that understanding ultimate truth wouldn’t cause your appreciation of things to diminish. Just the opposite.

Seeing that things aren’t separate, rigid constructs, but that everything is in constant motion should really give one a lot more freedom, more movement. Knowing that pleasant things are temporary makes one appreciate them more, and knowing that unpleasant things are like storms that will soon pass, one doesn’t get pulled down by them.
But dreams don't occur though, they aren't real. Nothing in them really affects or harms you. You can get torched and not burn because none of it we ever real.

Also why would ultimate truth not mean its not real? Isn't there that quote that "before enlightenment rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks, during the process rocks aren't rocks and rivers aren't rivers, and upon realization rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks"? That makes it sound like ultimately nothing is real.
The only "proper" way of being in the world is acceptance of the good and the bad, without feeling inherently joyful or badly about it
Suffering is change; change is chaos; at the ultimate level suffering is the only real thing, but it is only suffering through the lens of those who suffer
the bunny cries, the bird cheers, nature goes on
You spend enough time in meditation, you will realize that you never genuinely feel feelings in the first place
it is all just cause and effect response
and a lot of the time the specificity of that response is ascribed to how societal expectations dictate one should be effected by a particular cause
loss-->sadness
gain-->joy

The part about loss being false, is cold -- that is why the wise thing to do is to help people grieve rather than tell them about it
there are more appropriate times and places to discuss the ultimate nature of reality,
and telling someone "death doesn't matter" while they are vulnerable and grieving over death
will often hurt them in an emotional sense more than it will help guide them to an ultimate understanding
You say that realization leads to a more engaged life but that doesn't seem to be the impression I read from other Buddhist sources, mostly some stuff in Lion's Roar. It tends to lead to detachment but also because content, sort of like a turtle I think they put it.

Knowing the true nature of things does render them less enjoyable and this has been measured. Jokingly people call it the hotdog principle, where if you love something never learn how it's made. Knowing the horror is just actors does make it less suspenseful, the whole point of movies and the "illusion" is to NOT know it is one. Otherwise it loses all it's magic. If you want further proof just look at magicians who perform tricks, the whole point is not knowing, same with avoiding spoilers for games or movies. Ignorance is the point.

How you describe attitudes to relationships is more like what therapists would refer as toxic behavior, and they often advise "treating people like human beings", I wouldn't call that ultimate truth it's a pretty common story them in a lot of media.

Knowing pleasant stuff is transient tends to rob the joy from it because you're always aware that it won't last and that tends to overtake what currently happens, it's another thing that psychology tends to show.

I could see it leading to contentment because you realize it's like a stream with everything drifting on by, but I don't see the greater appreciation for things. It sounds like apathy since you know everything will pass there is no reason to be happy or sad about anything really. It will fade away. No need to help or harm others, everything rises and falls. Appreciation for stuff does require some degree of attachment, it what leads people to care enough to do things.

Though peace of mind sounds like a good deal to give all that up. I mean why else would they suggest people go off to become monks and join a monastery? It always seemed to come back to that when I talked to monks or other teachers. It doesn't seem like this can be a livable philosophy.

Some say that dependent arising and conventional reality are meaningful despite not being the ultimate reality. But some I've spoken to also mention:
I am inclined to think that the "Buddhist sites" you have posted on are a bunch of English speaking Westerners who try to define Buddhism themselves with what is convenient and not by what has been taught
I'm just getting mixed messages on what it going on.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:48 pm But dreams don't occur though, they aren't real. Nothing in them really affects or harms you. You can get torched and not burn because none of it we ever real.
Dreams do occur, but what occurs during dreams is not “real”.
That’s precisely the point. Our experiences are happening. But what is happening is not what we think is happening.

But “real” has to be defined here. If you define “real” as that which you can see and hear and touch, then they are real within that context.

For example, your (and my) entire physical existence is all happening on a microscopic level. I see myself as a unitary object, a six-foot guy walking around. So when I’m sick, I think “I” am sick. But what is “sick” is all going on at the cellular level. There’s ultimately no “me” that is sick. Even the experience of “me” doesn’t feel any different than the “me” who is healthy, but there’s no denying the experience of being sick.
Also why would ultimate truth not mean its not real? Isn't there that quote that "before enlightenment rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks, during the process rocks aren't rocks and rivers aren't rivers, and upon realization rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks"? That makes it sound like ultimately nothing is real.
Again, ultimate/relative truth doesn’t mean real/not real.
What that quote refers to is stages of realization.
Ordinarily a rock is a rock, then, as one progresses along the path, a rock becomes this super profound thing that you want to tell all if your friends about. Like, it’s a billion years old and contains the whole universe or whatever (kind of like being really high). And then, as you progress, you get over that, and it’s simply a rock, and that simplicity is enough, you don’t need it to be anything extraordinary because now your mind is at peace and it’s okay for a rock to just be a rock again.
You say that realization leads to a more engaged life but that doesn't seem to be the impression I read from other Buddhist sources, mostly some stuff in Lion's Roar. It tends to lead to detachment but also because content, sort of like a turtle I think they put it.
Well I’d have to see the articles to comment on that.

Do you keep up with any kind of regular practice (meditation, etc) from which to draw upon your own experiences, or is this all speculation?
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Jeff H »

Ardha, I think maybe the core issue is that you are satisfied with life as you find it, with all the ups and downs. If so, that's good. But if you are curious about the causes of “man’s inhumanity to man” or the fact that “the road to ruin is paved with good intentions”, those are the things Buddhism examines.

Relative truth is the emotional roller coaster, which some like and don't wish to examine. But through analysis of conventional interactions, ultimate truth illuminates selflessness. Far from resulting in not caring, that analysis leads to universal loving kindness.

You seem concerned about losing the emotional quality of experience, but that is not the renunciation of Buddhism. Buddhism renounces the extremes of experiential life. And the so-called middle way is not bland or devoid of feeling. It is the richness of being fully present and aware without being dragged around by our habitual reactions and drives.
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by laic »

Ardha wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:48 pm Isn't there that quote that "before enlightenment rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks, during the process rocks aren't rocks and rivers aren't rivers, and upon realization rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks"? That makes it sound like ultimately nothing is real.
Hello Ardha,

Really I do not see such a conclusion. Rather, everything becomes truly real. Positively, as I posted before, the import is that this world, our world, the only home we have known, is not betrayed for any imagined "other" (Much "religion" is, as I see it, such a betrayal)

D.T.Suzuki speaks of becoming once again the very same Toms, Dicks or Harrys we have always been - this after the acquisition of true knowledge. And as I see it, genuine ethics are always a by-product of true knowledge...wisdom....enlightenment...... unshakeable deliverance of mind - call it what you will.

Personally I must take all this on trust. I struggle. Meanwhile I keep a close watch on my mind/heart for coldness, seeking to keep it supple, trusting in the work of Amida (Reality-as-is), all beyond my calculations.

Maybe the zen guy Pai-chang said something relevant:-

The gradations of the language of the teachings—haughty, relaxed, rising, descending—are not the same. What are called desire and aversion when one is not yet enlightened or liberated are called enlightened wisdom after enlightenment. That is why it is said, “One is not different from who one used to be; only one’s course of action is different from before.

Our "course of action" will be one of a relevant compassion, whatever the circumstance of the moment.

Or as Yun-men said when asked what were the teachings of a whole lifetime:- "A suitable statement."

Some see "Faith" as a dirty word, yet faith in the Dharma is required at a certain level.
Protecting oneself one protects others
Protecting others one protects oneself
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Re: Two Truths Doctrine

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ardha wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:48 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:01 am
Ardha wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:57 pm I dont know if that's a good way to live though. Someone mentioned earlier essentially pretending this stuff is real and...I don't know if I could do that.
Relative truth is that the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.
Ultimate truth is that it’s actually the Earth rotating that creates the illusion of the Sun moving across the sky. The Sun doesn’t really rise and set.

But does knowing the true nature of how day and night occur make the experience any less enjoyable? Does knowing that movies are actually an illusion created by still images flashing 24 times per second make them less enjoyable?
Does knowing that the people in horror movies are just actors make the movie less suspenseful?

What I am saying is that we are already aware that lots of things are not the way they appear to be, and we all get by just fine with it, except for when the truth hits us. We pretend that we are not going to get sick and get old and die. But as the Buddha pointed out, these things are inevitable.

It I think it is more accurate to say that at the point where you truly have direct experience (not just an intellectual understanding) of ultimate truth, the way you experience emotions, love and friendships and so on, is really on somewhat of a different level.
I don’t mean that in some mystical way, but what I mean is, usually we approach everything with attachment and self-grasping, which in a way is very limiting.

It’s like, imagine if someone went to a zoo and the only way they could think of how to experience the animals was in terms of what it would be like to eat them. So, there is all this beauty and diversity but this person only thinks in terms of how a zebra might taste. This is sort of a ridiculous metaphor, but because of our habitual self-grasping, it’s very similar to what many people do. They only consider whether something will make them some money, or what what it would be like having sex with this person or that person, or what if they dressed a certain way, and so on. Because we take relative truth for ultimate truth, we often miss just how wide and expansive everything really is. So, I would say that understanding ultimate truth wouldn’t cause your appreciation of things to diminish. Just the opposite.

Seeing that things aren’t separate, rigid constructs, but that everything is in constant motion should really give one a lot more freedom, more movement. Knowing that pleasant things are temporary makes one appreciate them more, and knowing that unpleasant things are like storms that will soon pass, one doesn’t get pulled down by them.
But dreams don't occur though, they aren't real. Nothing in them really affects or harms you. You can get torched and not burn because none of it we ever real.

Also why would ultimate truth not mean its not real? Isn't there that quote that "before enlightenment rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks, during the process rocks aren't rocks and rivers aren't rivers, and upon realization rivers are rivers and rocks are rocks"? That makes it sound like ultimately nothing is real.
The only "proper" way of being in the world is acceptance of the good and the bad, without feeling inherently joyful or badly about it
Suffering is change; change is chaos; at the ultimate level suffering is the only real thing, but it is only suffering through the lens of those who suffer
the bunny cries, the bird cheers, nature goes on
You spend enough time in meditation, you will realize that you never genuinely feel feelings in the first place
it is all just cause and effect response
and a lot of the time the specificity of that response is ascribed to how societal expectations dictate one should be effected by a particular cause
loss-->sadness
gain-->joy

The part about loss being false, is cold -- that is why the wise thing to do is to help people grieve rather than tell them about it
there are more appropriate times and places to discuss the ultimate nature of reality,
and telling someone "death doesn't matter" while they are vulnerable and grieving over death
will often hurt them in an emotional sense more than it will help guide them to an ultimate understanding
You say that realization leads to a more engaged life but that doesn't seem to be the impression I read from other Buddhist sources, mostly some stuff in Lion's Roar. It tends to lead to detachment but also because content, sort of like a turtle I think they put it.

Knowing the true nature of things does render them less enjoyable and this has been measured. Jokingly people call it the hotdog principle, where if you love something never learn how it's made. Knowing the horror is just actors does make it less suspenseful, the whole point of movies and the "illusion" is to NOT know it is one. Otherwise it loses all it's magic. If you want further proof just look at magicians who perform tricks, the whole point is not knowing, same with avoiding spoilers for games or movies. Ignorance is the point.

How you describe attitudes to relationships is more like what therapists would refer as toxic behavior, and they often advise "treating people like human beings", I wouldn't call that ultimate truth it's a pretty common story them in a lot of media.

Knowing pleasant stuff is transient tends to rob the joy from it because you're always aware that it won't last and that tends to overtake what currently happens, it's another thing that psychology tends to show.

I could see it leading to contentment because you realize it's like a stream with everything drifting on by, but I don't see the greater appreciation for things. It sounds like apathy since you know everything will pass there is no reason to be happy or sad about anything really. It will fade away. No need to help or harm others, everything rises and falls. Appreciation for stuff does require some degree of attachment, it what leads people to care enough to do things.

Though peace of mind sounds like a good deal to give all that up. I mean why else would they suggest people go off to become monks and join a monastery? It always seemed to come back to that when I talked to monks or other teachers. It doesn't seem like this can be a livable philosophy.

Some say that dependent arising and conventional reality are meaningful despite not being the ultimate reality. But some I've spoken to also mention:
I am inclined to think that the "Buddhist sites" you have posted on are a bunch of English speaking Westerners who try to define Buddhism themselves with what is convenient and not by what has been taught
I'm just getting mixed messages on what it going on.
You’ve been on this forum posting forms of the same question for nearly two years now.

If you want to believe Buddhist practice or philosophy leads to robotic detachment or whatever, that’s your prerogative.

It’s getting really tiresome watching you present the same straw man arguments over and over, and seemingly never consider anyone’s responses.

The basic answer here is yes, some Buddhist mistakenly use practice to dissociate or shut down, and develop nihilistic attitudes. That is not the intent of the tradition and in fact the development of that kind of attitude is a known deviation from the path.

You post these questioning that basically just you describing your subjective takes on what Buddhism “feels like” or “seems like”; those are actually about you and your mind, not about what Buddhism teaches.

I don’t think I’ve seen you post a properly sourced article either, so we don’t even know what you are reading or studying usually.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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