Is there such a concept as "collective karma"?

[It'sYa1UPBoy]

I'm not entirely sure what term to use, but this has more to do with evolution than anything, so let me see if I can find the right words...

So, the ancestors of humans were "animals" rather than "human-tier" in terms of the realms of rebirth. They exhibited less intelligence, less technological prowess, and had lives more heavily defined by animalistic suffering than the balance of suffering and bliss as seen in the human experience.

But, over time, our ancestors evolved through species and...moved up a tier, in a sense. Even now, humans seek things like immortality, end of physical and mental suffering (in terms of biological processes), and ways of producing organic and pseudo-organic matter at will, and in theory if we achieved these things we might "graduate" to the deva realm in terms of our ratio of suffering to bliss.

And today we see other species of apes growing more intelligent--- using more complex tools, learning sign language, etc. Now, they most certainly do not exhibit the same levels of intelligence and technological prowess as us, don't get me wrong--- but I could someday see them becoming more like us than like animals. Someday in the...very far-off future, mind you.

So now to my titular question: could one say that species have a "collective karma" that allows them to be "reborn" wholesale into a new realm through evolution? Is this something ever mentioned in texts/sutras/commentaries? I know, of course, that Darwinian evolution is, well, a fairly modern concept. But, for example, was there ever a view expressed, beyond ideas like "humans will live for 80,000 years when Maitreya comes," that humans could become like devas? I am not seeking, of course, a detailed map of the karma of humanity; to try to contemplate the exact paths of karmic seeds is fruitless and unskillful for unenlightened beings, and I of course am aware of this. I'm really just curious as to how Buddhism stands with such modern scientific theories.

In gassho,

[laic]

I'd say that there is very evidently a "karma" that issues in individuals apparently suffering even though simple observation would suggest that they are totally innocent.

Obviously we can then suggest that the young child, gassed to death, or caught by a random missile, or found to have an incurable cancer, is in fact in some sense "guilty/responsible" because of past misdemeanours. Such "answers" and explanations may or may not have a basis in suttas or suttras. Personally I think such "answers" not conducive to living the "holy life" but others may not agree.

Anyway, a quick google will reveal many hits as far as "collective karma" is concerned. Take your pick.

[PadmaVonSamba]

There is such a concept
and it is grossly misunderstood,
mainly because the concept of karma
Is grossly misunderstood.

[Norwegian]

OP,

Perhaps read this thread: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=33016

[laic]

OP,

Perhaps read this thread: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=33016

Hi, yes, quite a lot of views expressed there.

Dare I quote from a Theravada text on this forum?

A monk is questioning the Buddha concerning the origin of suffering:-

Is suffering caused by oneself?"

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

"Then is suffering caused by another?"

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

"Then is suffering caused both by oneself and another?"

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

"Then is suffering neither caused by oneself or another?"

"Do not put it like that Kassapa"

"Then there is no suffering?"

"It is not a fact that there is no suffering: there is suffering, Kassapa"

"Then does Master Gotama (the Buddha) neither know nor see suffering?"

"It is not a fact that I neither know nor see suffering: I both know and see suffering, Kassapa"

The conclusion is that we are being asked to "come and see" (for oneself) or in Pali "ehipassiko". The same sort of exchange can be found in the Buddhist texts for much else - life after death, the beginnings of the world, etc etc.

I would say simply that we are our karma.

[It'sYa1UPBoy]

Norwegian, I did indeed read through the thread you posted.

I've just woken up so I do hope this isn't incoherent or nonsensical.

Would it be closer to right view, to say that what I perceived as a "special karma" ("special" as in "of species" rather than "unusual or noteworthy") is, in fact, the meeting of various aggregations of karma/aggregates/etc. in a certain sphere or realm, which thusly causes new intentions and karmic seeds to arise through interactions of karma, cetana, and vipaka? (In this case, such a "certain sphere or realm" would refer to the realm of the human species of the human-like realm of birth on the planet Earth, or to the realm of the chimpanzee species of the animal realm of birth on the planet Earth.)

[laic]

I've just woken up so I do hope this isn't incoherent or nonsensical.

Oh yes, me too.

[Giovanni]

There is a misunderstanding in the question. I think you are talking about vipaka…the result of action. Karma simply means action, which usually has an intention. Action with intention is karma. The intention is carried by the mindstream of an individual. The result of karma is vipaka. The “fruit” of karma. This is also experienced by the individuals mind stream.
So collective karma does not make sense.

[PadmaVonSamba]

During a group session, a student once asked our lama if it was Tibet’s karma to be invaded by China. He answered that it was, but that the seeds of that karma had been planted before either China or Tibet ever existed.

The problem with discussing karma is that we presuppose entities or those agents who plant the seeds of karma and experience its ripening. and we presuppose those entities to be either individuals or groups of individuals.

But we have to keep in mind that such entities are relative concepts, and gross concepts at that. For example, if I am referring to an individual person, who or what is it that plants karmic seeds? Is it the mind or the body? It can’t be the body, because the body is just millions of interactive physical elements which function without conscious intentions. And if it is the mind, then we can’t say there is an actual single mind functioning in a group of people, like a computer network connected to a single mainframe that controls them.

However, on a relative level, a group of individuals can have the same intentions and act upon those same intentions. If a group of kids on a hot day decide to go a swimming pool to cool off, or a group of soldiers attacks a foreign country, and they do that, they follow through with those intentions, then you can say that is group karma, but really a better term would be shared karma

[Giovanni]

Of course in Buddhist terms an “individual” is in fact a temporary arrangement of skandhas rather than a persisting entity. Vipaka is the result of actions associated with that constantly changing configuration of skandhas. But according to my teachers only with that specific configuration. You will not experience the full result of my actions or vice versa, even though the “you” and “my” in that sentence are linguistic conventions.

[It'sYa1UPBoy]

I see... This is all very helpful, thank you all. What PadmaVonSamba referred to as "shared karma" is akin to what I was thinking of, I think. In any case, there's some things shared here today, for me to think about. I'm grateful for this space, which works with my current circumstances, where I can share my views and be set on the right path, or a "righter" path, or what have you.

[master of puppets]

I think, yes.

[Aemilius]

Shurangama sutra describes some form of upwards evolution.
From page 258 onwards in The Shurangama Sutra (the text is much longer in the sutra, it is about 20 pages.)

Chinese Rendering by Master Paramiti of Central North India at Chih Chih Monastery, Canton, China, A.D. 705
Commentary (abridged) by Ch’an Master Han Shan (1546-1623)
Translated by Upasaka Lu Kuan Yu (Charles Luk)

The Ten Categories in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts

"Further, Ananda, if living beings violate the precepts, break
the rules of Bodhisattva discipline, destroy belief in the (self-
possessed) Buddha-nature and create the
karmic causes, after being scorched in the hells for suc-
cessive aeons, they will have paid for all the wrong they have
done and will be reborn in the realm of hungry ghosts....

The Ten Categories of Animals (Birds, etc. )

Further, Ananda, when all karmic effects have been com-
pletely endured in the realm of hungry ghosts, that is after the
consequences of passions and thoughts have ended, they
will be reborn as animals (birds, etc.) who meet their former
creditors to repay outstanding debts....

The Ten Categories in the Realm of Human Beings

1. You should know that owls, after repaying their former debts
are reborn as wayward men in the realm of human beings.
2. Inauspicious creatures, after repaying their former
debts, are reborn as men with animal habits.
3. Foxes, after repaying their former debts, are reborn
as vulgar men.
4. Venomous creatures, after repaying their former
debts, are reborn as savages.
5.Tapeworms, after repaying their former debts, are
reborn as vile men,...

The Ten Categories in the Realm of Seers (Rishis)

Ananda, there are men who, instead of cultivating the
Samadhi of right Bodhi, practise (immortality) wrongly
according to their false thoughts, thus preserving their think-
ing and bodies; they are fond of living in mountains, groves
and uninhabitable places. There are ten classes of them.
1. Ananda, those men who diet (specially) to preserve
their bodies and thereby live long through dieting, are called
earthbound seers.
2. Those who take herbs and fruits to preserve their
bodies and thereby live long through taking medicine,...

The Six Heavens of the Realm of Desire (Kàmadhàtu)

1. Ananda, there are men who do not seek the permanent
because they cannot relinquish their love for their wives.
They, however, do not commit adultery, and so their minds
are clear and bright. After their death, they will be reborn in
the regions near the sun and the moon, called the four heav-
ens of the four deva-kings (catur-maharajakayika).
2. There are men who, though living with their wives,
are lukewarm about love and sexual desire. Their chastity is,
therefore, not perfect and so, after their death, they will be
reborn in the regions above the sun and the moon and on
the top of the world, called the Trayastrimsha heavens....

The Four Regions of the Dhyàna Heavens of the Realm of Form
(Rupadhàtu)

The first region of the three dhyàna heavens
1. Ananda, all worldly men who do not practise dhyana in
their cultivation of the Mind, cannot achieve Wisdom. If they
only abstain from sexual desires of which they do not even
think in their daily activities, they will not be contaminated by
love and will leave the realm of desires. They will be reborn,
as they wish, as people (Brahma-parisadya) in the heaven
called Brahmakayika....

The Four Heavens of the Formless Realm of Pure Spirit (Arupadhàtu)

The state of the Great Arhat
Further, Ananda, the region above the top of the realm of
form is divided into two paths. If the renouncing minds of
these devas create (transcendental) wisdom, the light of
which is perfectly penetrating, they will leap over to
become Arhats (later) to enter the Bodhisattva state. They
are called Great Arhats whose minds are turned towards the Mahayana...

The Four Classes in the Realm of Titans (Asura-gati)

Further, Ananda, there are four classes of asuras in the three
realms of existence.
1. If a hungry ghost, while in his realm, strives to pro-
tect the Dharma and thereby uses his powerful understand-
ing to enter the void, he will be reborn from an egg as an
asura who is connected with the realm of hungry ghosts.
2. If a deva, because of his diminishing merits, is about
to fall into the region near the sun and the moon, he will
be reborn from a womb as an asura who is connected with the
realm of human beings...

https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf

[PadmaVonSamba]

‘Collective karma’ occurs to the extent that beings are interconnected. For example, climate change. We are all connected to the social mechanism that depends on industrialization.even if you don’t drive a car, polluting machines are involved in the production and transportation of all of your food and clothing and medicine. So, we are all feeling the effects of climate change caused by the pollution from industrialization. We are reaping that karma.
But it is not ‘karma’ in the sense of mental imprints or of individual intention.

[Aemilius]

Human beings are social beings that have common habits. Certain things have been and are fashionable and "everybody" is involved in them. Like jazz music, bebop, existentialism, rock music, hippy culture, vegetarianism, etc.. Fashionabe ideas and social trends have existed in early 1900's, in 1800's, 1700's, etc... to the stone age, probably. These trends and cultures include ideas. Ideas constitute mental and vocal karma, and more often than not also karma of deeds. They include volitions, views of the existence, views of what is profitable and what is not profitable. They consist in common values. Thus they generate common deeds of body, speech and mind, that create common karmic results.
Wanting to wear news clothes is a volition that creates karma. It is an individual deed that has a specific and strong social meaning and a social foundation.

There is some confusion in what is karma and what is another level of causality. E.g. if I want to make tea using snow or ice, and then I heat the snow and ice to make tea with them. It is not a karmic result that snow and ice melt, alhough their melting is caused by my action. Their melting is in it self a physical causality. Karma is a separate level of causality, it is for example that you can form a habit of drinking tea or wanting to drink tea in the future.

[Aemilius]

In the Beginning of the World-cycle sutra beings are reborn into this world as a large group of similar beings, because they have similar karma. These beings and the outer world go through certain phases of transformation and development, as a large group of beings that experience similar changes, again because they have similar karma.

"4. “At a certain point, this world is restored again. The sentient beings that were born in the Ābhāsvara Heaven are numerous. Born here spontaneously, they’re nourished by joy. Their bodies glow with their own light, and they have the miraculous ability to fly. Their happiness has no obstacle, and their life spans are very long.

5. “After that, the world forms a great body of water that fills up every place. The world then is under a great darkness. There’s no sun, moon, stars, nor day and night. There’s no way to count the years, months, or the four seasons.

6. “Some time after that, the world again changes. The merits, actions, and lives of more sentient beings in the Ābhāsvara Heaven come to an end, and they are born here when their lives end. All are born here spontaneously, and they are nourished by joy. Their bodies glow with their own light, and they have the miraculous ability to fly. Their happiness has no obstacles, and their life spans are very long.

7. “In that time, there’s no male or female, noble or ignoble, high or low, or beings with different names. That host is born together in the world, so they are called ‘host born.’

8. “At that point, the Earth has a spontaneously produced flavor of earth, which solidifies into earth that’s like ghee. When that flavor of earth is produced, it’s likewise. It’s like butter that tastes as sweet as honey.

9. “After that, the sentient beings use their hands to taste what flavor it has. With the first taste, they realize they like it, and then they become attached to tasting it. Thus, they each take turns tasting it without stopping, and then they go after it greedily. They scoop it up with their hands and form it into lumps to eat, and they don’t stop eating it. Other sentient beings see this and emulate them, eating it and not stopping.

10. “The bodies of these sentient beings become rough, and their glow gradually disappears. They no longer have the miraculous ability to fly, either. At that point, there has yet to be a sun or moon, so when the glow of the sentient beings goes out, the world is plunged into a darkness that’s no different than before."

from Dirgha Agama sutra 30. Description of the World
Chapter 12: The Origins of the World, The Repopulation of the World
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... 30-12.html

[Aemilius]

There are old discussions of this topic where you can find several viewpoints not expressed so far, for example:

Vasana writes: "Here is a segment from Distinguishing Phenomena from Their Intrinsic Nature: Maitreya's Dharmadharmatavibhanga with Commentaries by Khenpo Shenga and Ju Mipham. A Summary of Shared and Unshared Abodes:

Concerning the first, the treatise states:
That which cycles and where the cycling takes place
Abide throughout as the constituents
Of sentient beings and their environment.
The constituents of the environment appear shared
And are, as such, shared awareness.
The constituents of sentient beings
Are shared, but also unshared.

The phenomena of cyclic existence are that which cycles and where the cycling takes place. These abide pervasively throughout as the constituents of sentient beings and their environment. The constituents of the environment appear as a shared experience and are, as such, the shared appearances of awareness. They are shared awareness because the consciousness associated with such appearances arises within the individual mind streams of all sentient beings. The constituents of sentient beings are shared, but also unshared.


The constituents of sentient beings are that which cycles, while the constituents of the environment are the context within which this continuous cycling takes place in the form of rebirth. The world of sentient beings and the world of the environment are known as the abodes throughout which beings cycle. Aside from these two—the supported constituents of sentient beings and the constituents of the environment that is their support—there is no other abode of cyclic existence whatsoever.
"Of these," one may wonder, 'What is shared and what is not?"

The constituents of the world's environment are referred to as "shared abodes" insofar as they appear collectively to those sentient beings whose active habitual tendencies correspond with one another and who have corresponding perceptions, or consciousnesses. The phenomena that comprise the constituents of sentient beings, however, are both shared and not shared.

The second section contains explanations of (1) shared abodes and (2) those that are not shared.

SHARED ABODES

Concerning the first of these, the treatise states:
Furthermore, birth, conventions,
Support, subjugation, benefit, harm,
Good qualities, and flaws
Mutually cause one another by ruling.
They are, therefore, shared.

Furthermore, birth, looking and other conventions, the support or subjugation enacted by others, benefiting and harming others, learning and other good qualities, and flaws like desire are present in individual mind streams. These factors mutually cause one another by being the ruling conditions for one another. They are, therefore, classified as constituents of sentient beings that are shared.


The phenomena categorised as the constituents of sentient beings can be classified as follows: (1) womb birth, (2) perceptible physical and verbal conventions, (3) supporting or (4) subjugating another, (5) benefiting, (6) harming, (7) the arising of the positive qualities associated with learning and other such factors that depend upon another and (8) the occurrence of flaws like desire. For a consciousness that manifests in this manner to occur, sentient beings must serve as the ruling conditions for one another and, thereby, mutually cause one another. For this reason they are termed "shared appearances." Birth, for example, occurs as a shared experience insofar as one's karma functions as the cause and the seeds of one's parents as the simultaneous conditions. This shared cause, in turn, results in a body born from the womb coming into existence. Likewise, shared conventions involve observing and communicating with others, as well as other such activities that are instigated by another individual's physical or verbal communication. This is the case when one person cares for another in either a spiritual or material sense; defeats them in an argument, in combat, or otherwise; helps them by protecting them from something they are afraid of or benefiting them in another way; harms them by beating them or through some other form of violence; develops positive qualities through study; or creates faults by teaching negative views, arousing desire, and so on.

Thus, situations where one individual acts as the ruling condition and the phenomena of another person's mind stream function as the primary cause are referred to as "shared" from the perspective of there being a single shared result. Conventionally these results are brought about by a collection of causes and conditions. In actuality, however, using the term "ruling cause" also indicates that there are no collectively experienced external objects. The reason, here, is that there are no external objects to function as observed conditions aside from consciousness, nor are the external environment or other seemingly shared appearances anything more than the objective aspect of the inner consciousness."


Alaya-vijnana it is shared or subjective storage? https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=21104

Group karma https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=10766

Collective karma https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=28365