Imperfect Practitioner

[Jack H]

Are we being unrealistic thinking we have to be perfect as Buddhist? Are we holding ourselves to an unrealistic standard thinking we have to be perfect to practice and to be a Buddhist?

[Kim O'Hara]

Hi, Jack, and welcome to the forum.

I honestly don't know anyone who thinks they have to be perfect as Buddhists, or even thinks that being perfect is possible. The path is realistic, and more tolerant than that. Even our Five Precepts are 'training guidelines' rather than 'commandments'.
We start from wherever we are, do our best, don't beat ourselves up when we make mistakes, and end up wherever we get to. It's kind of like learning to ride a bike, and the key word is 'practice'.


Kim

[Johnny Dangerous]

A basic definition of a Buddha is one who has brought all positive qualities to fruition, and extinguished all negative states. That’s a *Buddha*, not a Buddhist.

I remember having a fight with my wife like 15 years ago or so when I’d gotten more serious about practice, I lost my temper and she said something like “that wasn’t very Buddhist of you”. I said something like “why do you think I practice”. Silly example but it makes the point.

By definition we practice Buddhadharma *because* we are so far from the state of a Buddha, and are being pulled along all the time by the flood of samsara. Ruthless self-honesty is a good companion on this journey, and trying to “be perfect” is just spiritual materialism.

Knowing and acknowledging our own lack of discipline and control can be fuel for compassion for others experiencing the same things, as well as motivation to progress to better states, and help others go in the same direction.

[Jack H]

Thank you Johnny and Kim. The one thing that has kept me from getting deeper into my practice is the fear of failing or not being the "perfect" Buddhist or Buddha. Obviously you are both correct, it is a practice in which we grow and learn as we live and as we make mistakes and face challenges. I also have to remind myself it is a practice and not commandments. That catholic background is hard to reprogram.

[Kim O'Hara]

...That catholic background is hard to reprogram.

I thought I spotted a hint of it in your question.

A focus on here-and-now, i.e. 'mindfulness' in Buddhist terms, might be a good antidote to the judgementalism and pie-in-the-sky of catholicism.


Kim

[Johnny Dangerous]

Thank you Johnny and Kim. The one thing that has kept me from getting deeper into my practice is the fear of failing or not being the "perfect" Buddhist or Buddha. Obviously you are both correct, it is a practice in which we grow and learn as we live and as we make mistakes and face challenges. I also have to remind myself it is a practice and not commandments. That catholic background is hard to reprogram.

Thankfully my Grandma lapsed lol, so I was pretty far removed. Even with that theres some conditioning though, guilt-mandated “good works” had an imprint. It took me a while to get the less prescriptive, more spontaneous notions of Bodhicitta in action. Literally it was a foreign feeling in some ways when it first arose because the feeling of prescriptive good works has a kind of tense undercurrent of expectation.

Not saying that’s “proper” to Catholicism necessarily either, only that I can see it in some of my family history.

[Ayu]

Once I analyzed myself with a special meditative method and I found out that perfectionism is one of my most subtle, hidden but nevertheless strongest obstacles.
It's a hindrance, because it stops a natural flow of learning.
As you, Jack, say: you didn't even dare to start a practice.This is a good example of how perfectionism serves as break only.

My Tibetan teacher knows about this especially German stance - we think, perfectionism is a necessity and don't realize the disadvantages. So, my teacher always encourages us to take it slow and easy. And he really takes tbe Dharma most seriously.

[laic]

I think perfection is very overrated. Great "progress" can be made simply by recognising our faults. I see ethics as always a by-product of wisdom* and when pursued in and of itself can often result in self-righteousness and therefore an eroding of compassion (which is a "relationship between equals" - Pema Chodron)

*Wisdom defined as "the mind/heart thirsting for emancipation seeing direct into the heart of reality" (Conze)

A clearly enlightened person falls into the well. How is this so? (Zen koan)

[Jack H]

Thank you everyone for your replies and input. That catholic background is hard to break and I am glad to learn that the idea of perfections is a waste of energy. I need to practice and focus on the here and now more, I know that is my biggest challenge. I tend to overthink and think my way out of trying or progressing. I focus on being the best Buddhist and and if I see a roadblock I allow it to stop me instead of finding a way to cross it or go through it.

So, here is another question. As new Buddhist practitioner what should I focus on? The 4 Noble Truth and the 8fold Path, the 5 Precepts, etc? It seems very overwhelming.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Thank you everyone for your replies and input. That catholic background is hard to break and I am glad to learn that the idea of perfections is a waste of energy. I need to practice and focus on the here and now more, I know that is my biggest challenge. I tend to overthink and think my way out of trying or progressing. I focus on being the best Buddhist and and if I see a roadblock I allow it to stop me instead of finding a way to cross it or go through it.

So, here is another question. As new Buddhist practitioner what should I focus on? The 4 Noble Truth and the 8fold Path, the 5 Precepts, etc? It seems very overwhelming.

Find a teacher/community and some kind of systematic approach, that’d be my recommendation.

[Kim O'Hara]

Thank you everyone for your replies and input. That catholic background is hard to break and I am glad to learn that the idea of perfections is a waste of energy. I need to practice and focus on the here and now more, I know that is my biggest challenge. I tend to overthink and think my way out of trying or progressing. I focus on being the best Buddhist and and if I see a roadblock I allow it to stop me instead of finding a way to cross it or go through it.

So, here is another question. As new Buddhist practitioner what should I focus on? The 4 Noble Truth and the 8fold Path, the 5 Precepts, etc? It seems very overwhelming.

Find a teacher/community and some kind of systematic approach, that’d be my recommendation.

A real-life community is a huge help.

In the meantime, keep it simple. For me, the Precepts and the Divine Abidings are enough of a basis for acting well in this world and exploring the Noble Truths is enough of a philosophical background. If you come across any of the classic introductions like the Dalai Lama's Art of Happiness, or Thich Nhat Hanh's Peace is Every Step https://plumvillage.org/thich-nhat-hanh/key-books/, enjoy them.


Kim

[Jack H]

Thank you for your reply Kim.

I recently heard in a podcast, "Everyday Buddhism", that you should first practice and get a grasp of the 4 Noble Truths and the 8fold Path before focusing on the 5 Precepts. Any thoughts on that?

[Kim O'Hara]

Thank you for your reply Kim.

I recently heard in a podcast, "Everyday Buddhism", that you should first practice and get a grasp of the 4 Noble Truths and the 8fold Path before focusing on the 5 Precepts. Any thoughts on that?

That sequence looks logical but isn't sensible, IMO.

Following the Precepts, as best we can, is something any of us can do without any great understanding of the theory, and it will make our lives better as soon as we start. They would actually make our lives better even if the Buddha got everything else wrong (it's okay, he didn't ) because they are good basic rules of moral conduct.

Getting a grasp of the 4 Noble Truths and the 8fold Path, on the other hand, is a gradual process of improvements in our understanding and can take years - decades - maybe lifetimes. At what point should we say, "Okay, now I know enough to begin practising the Precepts" ?
There is also the point that we won't advance far with the theory if our daily lives are a mess. Go out and drink with mates, then come home and study the 4NT? No, that won't work, will it?


Kim

[Jack H]

Thank you again Kim. That makes perfect sense. I have to say, the idea of making a mistake and being okay puts me at ease. Try to learn from the mistake and try not to do it again.

Here is a question. What if someone knowingly and intentionally breaks a precepts? Say, I am at a party and I drink way to much or at all? Or, I take a marker home from the office?

[Giovanni]

Thank you everyone for your replies and input. That catholic background is hard to break and I am glad to learn that the idea of perfections is a waste of energy. I need to practice and focus on the here and now more, I know that is my biggest challenge. I tend to overthink and think my way out of trying or progressing. I focus on being the best Buddhist and and if I see a roadblock I allow it to stop me instead of finding a way to cross it or go through it.

So, here is another question. As new Buddhist practitioner what should I focus on? The 4 Noble Truth and the 8fold Path, the 5 Precepts, etc? It seems very overwhelming.

Find a teacher/community and some kind of systematic approach, that’d be my recommendation.

This above all.